The Breitling Watch Source Forums

I don't think he's saying that at all. I think he's saying that the low-end pieces that Seiko sell in vast quantities has undermined the brand image to the extent that the really good watches they make (i.e. the Anantas, the Grand Seikos, etc) are all tarred with the same brush. Which was also my original point about brand image is something to be nurtured extremely carefully over time.

To use a European example, Maurice LaCroix make some excellent watches in the Masterpiece range, but their image is still undermined by the much lower quality stuff they were producing until only a few years ago.

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Driver8

Site Moderator

I think a lot of people with big, blingy watches want people to see the watch and know they cost a lot of money, to portray something about themselves they want people to know about them. Brand image is important in that sence. If you ask the average person who knows little or nothing about watches to name the best brand of watch they know, I think the majority will say Rolex. How many people buy Rolex for that reason alone?

Like someone said earlier, a $4500 Seiko will look like a $150 watch to average people, and the people looking for recognition will more then likely not appreciate that.

That being said, I bought a Breitling not because I think it was the best watch in the world, but because the brand speaks to me. It has the image, craftsmanship and "soul" that I want in a fine watch. I have zero interest in Seiko, though the watch I have had for the longest; 15 years and has served me well that entire time is in fact a Seiko.

Exactly...

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PAM359, Omega PO Big Size, 1951 Omega Seamaster, Rolex Sea Dweller

Ok sorry then i mis understood

Bryan

Agreed. Like it or not, we live in a judgemental, materialistic culture and people are generally judged by their appearance in a variety of ways. Most people will not be able to tell a low-end, mass-manufactured Seiko from a high-end, well-crafted piece, and that can affect the perception of the wearer, too. I would say that a very small proportion of Rolex owners (not referring to the guys here; if you're here, you've got a genuine interest in timepieces which I totally respect) know much of anything about the history or quality of the brand, they are buying the name alone because it has a certain cachet.

While I would never buy any item just for the cachet of the brand name without knowing any more about it, I have to admit I would be hesitant to drop serious money on something most people will mistake for cheap and mass-produced. To be honest, my general preference for luxury items are things that are well-made and under-the-radar (like a Breitling or Chopard) which will not be immediately recognisable to the general public (like a Rolex), though still won't be mistaken for a lower-end item (like a Seiko), and will be appreciated by like-minded individual with an interest in the particular item in question (watches, clothes, jewellery, whatever).

Maybe it is snobbery to a certain degree, but brand image wouldn't be such a concern for companies, with such huge money spent on marketing and advertising, if it weren't relevant to the success of the company because it's important to a big slice of the consumer market.

This is exactly right and it is relevant not only to watches.

I wouldn't want to hijack Drtymrtini's thread but...

Why do you think Toyota is selling the Lexus or Datsun/Nissan the Infiniti under another brand name?

It may have worked in the States but not in Europe where buyers are hard to persuade to pay premium brand money for a brand that is not considered premium. And that is without having taken into consideration the resale price of these brands which is waaaay lower than their European counterparts.

Which brings me to the question: how would a Japanese watch do against a Swiss one (of the same categoty of course)?

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- This is Ghost Rider requesting a fly-by. - Negative Ghost Rider. The pattern is full.

the grand seiko is far superior to any swiss watch in it's class. truly world class craftsmanship.

Not much different than a Lexus though. A Lexus LS is objectively every bit as good as a comparable S-class. But the Lexus doesnt evoke the same feelings as the S. Its not as pretty. Its not as exclusive. Its not as sexy. Its definitely not German. Thats why its not as desirable.

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-RJ

not as exclusive? are you kidding me? try finding a grand seiko outside of the far east. rolex's, for example, can be found anywhere. not as pretty? that's strictly subjective. some beg to differ. let's not confuse seiko watches and grand seiko watches. two completely different animals. it's not a rebadged toyota, like lexus.

Im referring to the perceptions that people have, not actual objective criteria. I have no idea how many Seikos, Grand Seikos, Mercedes, or Lexus are sold, but people equate Mercedes-Benz and Rolex with exclusivity; Seiko and Lexus, not so much. I currently own both a Lexus and a Mercedes (and generally prefer Lexus cars overall), but this is just the way that it is outside of Japan.

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-RJ

Let me say that even in Japan BMW or Mercedes is considered more of a premium brand than Lexus. That is a why there is a particularly high special import tax for these vehicles so as to favor as much as possible indigenous production.

I wondered what the Japanese reaction would be if Seiko had to pay a similar tax in Switzerland or in Europe.

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- This is Ghost Rider requesting a fly-by. - Negative Ghost Rider. The pattern is full.

I totally agree that brand perception playes a large role in most people buying decisions. But as someone who now owns both Japanese and European cars and watches, I feel I need to weigh in here.

First off, European cars ARE more luxerious than Japanese cars. My 07 Mercedess S class has allot more attention to detail evident when it comes to wood selection and finishing, the metal accents on the dahsboard and center console are actually brushed metal, wheras they are cheap looking alluminum on my 09 Lexus LS460L. Also, the Lexus center console is far more cluttered and visually less apealing than the S500. The decor and contrasting design both internally and externally in the S is just more luxerious.

Now on the other hand, the Lexus offers a far more user friendly experience, within one week of driving teh car I have learned to do absolutely everything without looking at teh center console, its all very intiutive not to mension that all functions are no more than two menus deep, now on the S500 some options are buried up to 11 menus deep and that damn mouse wheel control is a pain to use. It is obvious that Lexus went for function over form, while the Merc took the other route.

That is what initially catches peoples attention, the brand name and the Luxerious finishing and decor. The Lexus on the other hand has far more advanced electronics, reliability, a better price point, drivability (the thing glides on the road!) and what just happens to be the best mobile sound system ever packaged in a car! I dont get the same complements when I drive my lexus, and I coudl care less. From here on out its all Lexus for me!

To a lesser extent, the same is true for the Seiko Ananta GMT and say, my Rolex Deepsea. The Seiko offer unmatched performance, tons of innovation, an exemplary finish, and at a VERY attractive pricepoint, but the Rolex always gets the nod from people. Take a look at this video I hade a while back:

It is my opinion that a true watch enthusiast would be able to overcome the brand name issue, I wouldnt pay 55K for a Rolex Day-Date in platinum as I KNOW it was only made for those who knew nothing about watches but had the money, and the Seiko offers the exact opposite. An underpriced and overachieving watch with a very unimpressive name on the dial.

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Certified watch nut.

Funny, everybody was laughing at BMW when they first introduced the, very contested, i-drive. Now, every car maker that respects itself has one. But, you should try BMW's i-drive sometime Altair, with time, and the technical expertise and advance Munich engineers enjoy over competitors, it has become much more user friendly than first models.



Also, do not forget that the main target clientèle for these models is not so much the 55-65+ year-olds anymore but the 45-55 year-olds, hence the more computer/gadget oriented cockpits.

Other than that, I totally agree with your very detailed thread.

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- This is Ghost Rider requesting a fly-by. - Negative Ghost Rider. The pattern is full.

Branding is an art form and getting people perceptions to change can be hard work. But not impossible. In the early days of electronics Japenese was synonymous with cheap crap. But over the years that image as changed. Look at Sony. Now considered a luxury electronics brand.

Does a Seiko tell the same time as my Panerai?

Yes.

Can a Toyota get me from point A to point B in the same amount of time doing the speed limit?

Yes.

But the question for me is, which is more luxurious to drive and which is prettier?

I'll take my Panerai over a Seiko any day - I don't care if people recognize it or not - it's all in the details and it's all about the ride

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PAM359, Omega PO Big Size, 1951 Omega Seamaster, Rolex Sea Dweller