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 Post subject: Transitional 765 AVI ?
PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2019 5:53 am 
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Hello Everyone and Happy New Year

I made an interesting AVI 765 purchase over Xmas and wanted to share some of the information that came to light whilst discussing and assessing this piece as well as some of the further research I have done on the subject.
I have been told several times now that I don't share my knowledge enough in the vintage Breitling realm (I mainly operate on Instagram) so here goes... :oops:

Here is the watch... A 765 AVI with Reverse Panda dial commonly known as a Raquel Welch (Pay close attention to the bezel)
Attachment:
AVI_1.JPG


The Bezel is fully numbered 1-11 unlike my other (normal) AVI which has a dash and number in turn shown here side by side for comparison...
Attachment:
AVI_3.JPG


Our initial thought ran to that this was just an earlier bezel from an all Black AVI but I noted that it couldn't be due to the fact it has a Serrated (not Beaded) edge...
Attachment:
AVI_4.JPG


At this point it was mentioned that this could be a previously undocumented transitional bezel...

We have potentially all seen these before but not paid close enough attention as you can't always see the serrated edge in face on photos and therefore pass it off as an incorrect earlier Beaded bezel (which in reality would be worth quite a lot loose as a separate part).

So what is it transitioning and when is it from? It is known the 'Raquel Welch' AVI ran from circa 1962-1964 and although the front of the bezel bares a lot of resemblance to the earlier All Black AVIs I would say these pieces are actually from late 1964 towards the end of the steel bezel reverse panda 765 production before we see the Black bezel 765 CP.
The serial number of my piece is 989xxx and below is a picture showing 6 other examples I can find of which the top 3 we know are also 989xxx serial numbers dating them all to 1964.
Attachment:
AVI_8.JPG


Also here are images from a Trautmann brochure showing the AVI with the Fully numbered bezel. This was likely released in 1964 as it also features the Transitional 806 Navitimer only produced towards the end of 1963.
Attachment:
AVI_7.JPG


So the question is are these Fully Numbered Steel Serrated edge bezels Transitonal pieces that were produced for a short period in 1964 before Breitling introduced the Fully numbered All Black Bezel 765 CP Co Pilot in 1965?
My best guess is probably Yes, though I am sure there is more conclusive evidence out there.

It would be great to hear other thoughts (especially Fred) on this subject and also if anyone else has one of these bezels on their Raquel Welch AVI could you please share the first few digits of the serial number and or the production year...

I hope this has been an interesting read. All the best S...


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Last edited by Orologium on Fri Jan 04, 2019 7:32 am, edited 1 time in total.


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2019 6:20 am 
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Cool. Thanks for sharing.



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PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2019 6:44 am 
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Great detail. Thanks for sharing
Happy 2019 for you too


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



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PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2019 3:35 am 
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great research! Have been looking at that Trautmann catalog for years - and never noticed the fully numbered steel bezel.



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PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2019 5:32 am 
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WatchFred wrote:
great research! Have been looking at that Trautmann catalog for years - and never noticed the fully numbered steel bezel.


Thanks Fred :D

I think we have found another catalogue example aswell, I will update shortly...



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PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2019 6:26 am 
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Ok, with some help from Nic at Breitling (Thanks Nic) we have also found this Wakmann catalogue showing the fully numbered bezel.

Attachment:
Wak1.jpg


I am unsure of the exact print date (some sources saying 1959) though the catalogue also features the 1963 Transitional Navitimer and Cosmonaute as well as the steel bezel Unitime from mid 60s.
Also it features the late 50s SuperOceans suggesting the SuperOcean 2005 (Mid 60s, earliest I'm aware of is late 64) hadn't quite been released yet.

Attachment:
Wak2.jpg


So again this helps to show the potential of the 1964 timeline


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2019 6:41 am 
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yes, found this one too, though the pic is really small - would date that to 63/64 too, same period as the Trautmann; the UK & Sweden catalogs from the slightly later (64/65, including the 810&2005) have the even numbered bezels...

Image



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PostPosted: Tue Jan 08, 2019 12:27 pm 
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Are all your AVIs you looked at large care?
I have one too.
thanks,


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 08, 2019 2:36 pm 
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assuming u mean large case?
these are all the small case 765 version, i.e. 41mm bezel diameter, only the 7650 have largers case w/ 43mm


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 08, 2019 6:25 pm 
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Yes. Thanks.


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 19, 2019 12:33 pm 
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As far as i am aware the full numbered bezels were used on the (very) early b/w 765’s withe the 15 minute subdial only minimally larger than the other 2 , when the sub increased in size the full numbered bezel gave way to the dashed bezels with a few dashed bezels seen on small subdial 765’s

I do not remember ever having seen full numbered bezels on 765’s with larger 15 minute subdials?

I do however remember remember these full numbered bezels offered on ebay as spare a few years ago ? , maybe this is one of them

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 19, 2019 12:46 pm 
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765 timeline (from the top of my head , without supporting docs as i am sitting in the jungle)

All blacks 1962 (lucy)
B/w with 15 min subdial almost same size as other 2 subdials: mid/end 1962 and with fully numbered bezel (same of the later 63 ones seen with dashed bezels) (raquel)
B/w larger 15 min subdial and dashed bezel mid/end 63 to 1964 (raquel)
End of 1964 early 65 introduction of the black alu bezel (JCK)
1968 (7?) 7650 42.5mm models

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 21, 2019 12:04 pm 
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Ps i would not put too much faith in catalogs as (single) source to date watches
We have seen too many examples where watches that were no longer in production (ie beaded bezel 806/809 appear in 1965 catalogs ) when they were already replaced by a newer version

Most likely these catalogs were not produced by or for collectors that would use them as reference material half a century later ;)

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2019 4:58 am 
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Dracha wrote:
Ps i would not put too much faith in catalogs as (single) source to date watches
We have seen too many examples where watches that were no longer in production (ie beaded bezel 806/809 appear in 1965 catalogs ) when they were already replaced by a newer version

Most likely these catalogs were not produced by or for collectors that would use them as reference material half a century later ;)


I have not used the catalogues as a Single source, I have used them after identifying as many other examples of watches with the Full numbered bezel as I can (as shown above) all with 989xxx serial numbers Dating them to circa 1964.
I merely stated the catalogues fit this 1964 timeline because of the other watches they feature.

I too initially presumed the transition of this bezel would be for early Raquel Welch because of the similarities of the Full numbers to the All Black AVIs but that would then suggest serial numbers should be 1961/1962. As mentioned all examples I can find seem to have 989xxx (circa 1964) serials.


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 26, 2019 1:30 pm 
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Sorry but I never ‘presumed’ these bezels were for the all blacks , i have known (and posted about) these all black bezels having beads. Early all black bezels have small beads , late all black bezels have big beads

As mentioned before , these bezels are typically found on watches that have the small 15 minute counter and some were sold recently on ebay

If you read between the lines you could read that depending on the serial number and batch of watches that most likely your dial (with large 15 minute subdial) does not belong in this case but is a replacement dial *if* the serial number is indeed from this batch that has the ‘non dashed’ bezel and 989xxx serial, if it has this serial and bezel , and if both are correct the dial is from a later version watch or service dial

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