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 Post subject: Re: SOTC
PostPosted: Sat Dec 22, 2018 2:01 pm 
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I've had a couple of bronze pieces now (both micro-brand stuff as I wasn't sure if I'd get on with the bronze), and I still struggle with the whole patina thing. Now I know it's the whole point of bronze, but so many case designs just don't lend themselves (IMO) to patinisation (if that's a word!).

However, the whole deep-sea-diver styling of the Panerai Bronzo's case is probably the only one that looks absolutely made for some patina. It's a great looking piece.

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 Post subject: Re: SOTC
PostPosted: Sun Dec 23, 2018 9:04 pm 
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Bronze is definitely an acquired taste, and I believe you will only really like it if you have a taste for vintage. I saw the Big Pilot in bronze at my AD, offered a steep discount, but just couldn't pull the trigger. The material just doesn't lend itself in my eye to anything other than a Panerai, and a Sub at that. Maybe because they where first.

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 Post subject: Re: SOTC
PostPosted: Sun Dec 23, 2018 10:40 pm 
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I am having something of a personal crisis over where to go with my collection, and could use some objective insight.

I am working at trading in a portion of my collection, as highlighted in my first post. download/file.php?id=33110&mode=view

With the exception of the Hublot and Nautilus, I estimate the value at 70K. That, and some haggling, should see me into a Patek 5170P, the ultimate dress watch ever made IMO, and just a stunner of a chronograph movement.

Having two Nautilus watches is excessive (like that has ever stopped me!) and I have been debating which one to let go. The Chrono just makes more sense on a sport watch, and I do enjoy the bracelet very much. So the Nautilus Annual Calendar is headed out to be replaced by a Calatrava Pilot Travel Time in RG. A watch that will add significant diversity to my collection. I have my heart set on that one.


The Hublot was picked up by my AD, I had complained about the sale enough that they agreed to sell it for me. As it is being sold through an AD and it does have a fan base with the bling crowd (again, I maintain I was under the influence and not in my natural state when I bought it!!!) I expect it to get close or even a bit more than what I apid for it, 20K.

The agreement with my AD is that I will use that credit to get a new watch, they carry a large number of brands and I am to have my pick and a substantial 27% discount. I have it narrowed down to the following:

Richard Lange "Pour le Mérite"

https://www.alange-soehne.com/en/timepi ... white-gold

In my opinion, this is the single greatest timepiece ever created. It embodies everything the legendary Glasgutte manufacturer stands for, and then some. Lange bestow the honor of "Pour le Mérite" on their very finest creations, and only five have ever deserved the title. Each model of the "Pour le Mérite" watches had one singular objective, to be the very finest example of the type of watch it represents. Every Lange watch is supposed to be perfect, if they are to be believed. And after owning one for 10 days now I can attest that the relatively humble 1815 Annual Calendar that has performed office duty for the past week really is perfect, I cant find fault in the execution or design. Timekeeping is exemplary and the movement is a wonder. I can only imagine what Lange would do if they wanted to perfect "perfect", and it seems that they did so by overengineering the watch to unimaginable levels.

The simple three hand, time only model is my favorite. Its design is truely timeless, proportions are ideal, and the movement, a true work of art, utilising the fusée-and-chain mechanism. I have always wanted a watch that utilized this movement and a tourbillon. The two most effective and involved mechanisms to increase a watches accuracy. Yes, with modern watches and the advancements we have had, they are not necessary at all. But their charm lies in the concept, the pursuit of perfect timekeeping through a mechanical device. I have a tourbillon incoming, arriving mid January, this would be a double whamy.

Also, the watch really is useful in everyday life, outside the realm of watch enthusiasts and our unnatural fascination with mechanical timepieces, This is a watch that is guaranteed to stand the test of time, hold its value, and to do so while being discreet and a real stealth machine, only noticeable by the most knowledgeable of enthusiasts. I have seen one in person, and the combination of the precious metal case, exquisite movement, deep black dial, roman numerals, and meticulous finishing elevates a suit to extreme heights. While the Patek 5170P concurs with its beauty and slightly casual with its chronograph complication and graduated blue dial, the Lange dominates with a stern and calculated simplicity, an air of superiority about it, back by a serious effort to create the ultimate time only formal timepiece. Having both options would elevate the collection to undreamt of heights.


It would be a truly magical world if I could accomplish that collection. The problem is that I keep snapping back into realty, the "Pour le Mérite" costs an eye watering 82,000 US and change! Even with the discount and Hublot sale funds its still a sizable amount, I am 37, and should "settle" for an 1815 chronograph or a "standard" Richard Lange at around 35K to complete my German collection, and put the 40K towards investments for my future, especially with a new wife soon to be my side.


On the other hand, this might be my last chance to perfect my collection and have a comfortable launching pad where minor adjustments happen over the span of years, before the wife gets in the picture and starts acting as that annoying voice of reason. We live only once, I have been through hell, and I can always work harder to compensate. Money comes and goes, but this much excitement might never be replicated. Such a difficult choice!

Another option is the Brequet Tradition 7077, a very underrated and less known watch, yet a true masterpiece. I love chronographs, alongside Annual Calendars being my favorite complications. Breguet did a masterful job perfecting the chronograph in this watch, and I believe every watch enthusiast should own a Tradition, no other watch takes pride in showing the inner working of mechanical watches in quite the same way, and Breguet has managed to do so with class and sophistication. This watch maintains all that Breguet is known for, both in terms of aesthetic appeal and attention to artful and precise finishing. Upon my close inspection at an AD, this watch is definitely on par with Patek, and quite close to Lange. Yet offers a truly unique design. It is similarly priced to the Lange I am considering.

Very difficult choice, and one I am fortunate to have I know. I would very much appreciate your perspective. I am now going to go for my morning walk and hope I can clear my mind; this choice has been occupying my mind for a week and it’s driving me crazy!

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Last edited by Altair on Mon Dec 24, 2018 2:15 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: SOTC
PostPosted: Sun Dec 23, 2018 10:50 pm 
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Obligatory wrist shot! The JLC Extreme Lab on rubber is so tough and purpose built it has become my gym watch:

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 Post subject: Re: SOTC
PostPosted: Mon Dec 24, 2018 8:23 am 
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Altair wrote:
Richard Lange "Pour le Mérite"

https://www.alange-soehne.com/en/timepi ... white-gold

In my opinion, this is the single greatest timepiece ever created. It embodies everything the legendary Glasgutte manufacturer stands for, and then some. Lange bestow the honor of "Pour le Mérite" on their very finest creations, and only five have ever deserved the title. Each model of the "Pour le Mérite" watches had one singular objective, to be the very finest example of the type of watch it represents. Every Lange watch is supposed to be perfect, if they are to be believed. And after owning one for 10 days now I can attest that the relatively humble 1815 Annual Calendar that has performed office duty for the past week really is perfect, I cant find fault in the execution or design. Timekeeping is exemplary and the movement is a wonder. I can only imagine what Lange would do if they wanted to perfect "perfect", and it seems that they did so by overengineering the watch to unimaginable levels.

The simple three hand, time only model is my favorite. Its design is truely timeless, proportions are ideal, and the movement, a true work of art, utilising the fusée-and-chain mechanism. I have always wanted a watch that utilized this movement and a tourbillon. The two most effective and involved mechanisms to increase a watches accuracy. Yes, with modern watches and the advancements we have had, they are not necessary at all. But their charm lies in the concept, the pursuit of perfect timekeeping through a mechanical device. I have a tourbillon incoming, arriving mid January, this would be a double whamy.

Also, the watch really is useful in everyday life, outside the realm of watch enthusiasts and our unnatural fascination with mechanical timepieces, This is a watch that is guaranteed to stand the test of time, hold its value, and to do so while being discreet and a real stealth machine, only noticeable by the most knowledgeable of enthusiasts. I have seen one in person, and the combination of the precious metal case, exquisite movement, deep black dial, roman numerals, and meticulous finishing elevates a suit to extreme heights. While the Patek 5170P concurs with its beauty and slightly casual with its chronograph complication and graduated blue dial, the Lange dominates with a stern and calculated simplicity, an air of superiority about it, back by a serious effort to create the ultimate time only formal timepiece. Having both options would elevate the collection to undreamt of heights.

It would be a truly magical world if I could accomplish that collection. The problem is that I keep snapping back into realty, the "Pour le Mérite" costs an eye watering 82,000 US and change! Even with the discount and Hublot sale funds its still a sizable amount, I am 37, and should "settle" for an 1815 chronograph or a "standard" Richard Lange at around 35K to complete my German collection, and put the 40K towards investments for my future, especially with a new wife soon to be my side.

On the other hand, this might be my last chance to perfect my collection and have a comfortable launching pad where minor adjustments happen over the span of years, before the wife gets in the picture and starts acting as that annoying voice of reason. We live only once, I have been through hell, and I can always work harder to compensate. Money comes and goes, but this much excitement might never be replicated. Such a difficult choice!

The Richard Lange "Pour le Mérite" is undoubtedly beautiful, but since I'm in a totally different spending category to yourself Altair, I don't just find the price eye-watering, I find it brain-melting! And especially even more so for a 3-hander. :shock:

BUT....whoever said watch-buying is sensible/rational/understandable?! :D My advice (for what it's worth) would be to never settle all the time there is a chance to get what you really want. If you do settle, then you'll regret it. Guaranteed. If you really want it, and if you can afford it, then I say DO IT! And as you say, you'll probably be well advised to get it before your forthcoming marriage. The very last thing you need is a voice of reason at such a moment! :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: SOTC
PostPosted: Mon Dec 24, 2018 9:18 am 
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While I like the simple design of the Lange, I just don't know if I could fathom spending that on a dress watch unless I'm wearing it 4 or 5 times a week. While I know they may not be at the same level, I'd almost rather buy a simple 3 hand Patek for a fraction of the cost and wear that.

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 Post subject: Re: SOTC
PostPosted: Mon Dec 24, 2018 12:06 pm 
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Well, it’s good to see this forum still will not act as a voice of reason against the voices in my head! I love you guys!

As if it was preordained, as I read your words of encouragement I received a call from my AD, this time the owner himself, asking me to drop by when I had an hour or two to spend, as he had something special to show me.

It took me 8 minutes to cover the 30 minute ride over.

He was not kidding! He had something VERY special. In fact, I would say the most special, beautiful, elegant watch ever made. Not the best, that the Lange PML, but certainly the most breath taking. The Patek 5170P! As thanks for my loyalty as a customer, he authorized his employees to give me 35% off on all brands, 30 on Lange, 15 on Patek. Unheard of!

His home was close to the boutique strip his stores resided in, and it was close to dinner time. His employees told him about my choices, what I was asking about, and what they saw in my wrist each time I walked in, and he wanted to meet a local watch enthusiast and felt chatty. He offered to host me for an informal dinner, take out on the way over, and a chance to sit and smoke a cigar ( apparently they also told him they frequently saw me with a cigar holder, him also being a cigar enthusiast). Extremely generous, and very tempting! I was hoping to see what his collection would be like! The man who owns exclusive distribution rights for the top 20 Swiss brands and two German brands, in a wealthy part of the world. Exciting!

I will make this short as not to lore you, and no, I did not want to betray his trust and sneak any pictures. His home was nice, but nothing overtly presumptuous or luxurious. Elegant, neat, high quality. His collection l, at least the ones I saw, where truly stunning. Row after row after row of the most exclusive versions of every grand watch you ever heard of and half of the ones you didn’t. Including, get this, one each of every PML watch Lange ever made. Security was not tight, the devil gave me ideas, I decide against it.

Seriously, we are the bad take out and smoked the exemplary cigars while talking watches. We really enjoyed finding kindred souls with similar interests so close to home. It was odd, but I felt like I knew him for decades. Amazing guy! Humble, generous, amazing taste, and Wonderfull ideals.

He had some very interesting information, real insider stuff!!! I will do a dedicated post relying the very valuable information I learned from him. Some truly insightful stuff that clarifies where the industry is and where it’s headed, it all makes perfect sense. Not to keep you hanging completely; mechanical watches are not going anywhere, neither are paintings, and 40mm is the perfect watch size. Explanations to come.

I left with a plethora of goodies, very generous gifts!

Attachment:
IMG_0982.jpg


The watch has to be seen in person to be believed, the platinum case, the diamond indices, the magical graduated blue to black dial, the unbelievably pretty movement, it’s all just gorgeous. Unbelievable! And it’s about to be discontinued, the diamond indices, only found here and on the limited 40tg anniversary Nautilus, are impossible to maintain. They are done simply to prove that Patek can do it, they can produce a watch that is beauty itself.



I made out like a bandit:
Attachment:
IMG_0983.jpg




Gorgeous packaging:
Attachment:
IMG_0984.jpg



This is how you know you are dealing with the epitome of luxury brands, their promotional give always exceed the quality of the very best dedicated leather brands. Seriously, who made this leather? I am a luxury product junky, and actively seek out the best of everything. I never owned a wallet as well made and supple as this wallet and watch case. Unbelievable Patek!!! The Germans need to take a lesson here.
Attachment:
IMG_0985.jpg


Attachment:
IMG_0986.jpg



Image

The silk ties are absolutely sublime. Just like the watches, timeless and impeccably made. Patel is spending some serious money on their clients.
Image


Imagem


Image

Image

ImageImageImage


I asked if they where expecting a travel time Calatrava Pilot anytime soon. Apparently the RG version has not made it yet, his own was wonderful! I was however offered the second best thing at a great price. I decided to pick up the RG Nautilus until the pilot becomes available, flipping it for a profit should be easy.

Image

Such amazing watches, and what a wonderful brand. Patek really knows how to impress a client. And best of all, a wonderful new friend.


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 Post subject: Re: SOTC
PostPosted: Mon Dec 24, 2018 1:31 pm 
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Congrats! The 5170P is an amazing piece and all that swag, simply unreal. If you don’t have room for all those loupes, feel free to send one my way.

Are you keeping the factory strap on the 5170? I can’t remember when it was but I thought I saw someone over on the Rolex forums with a couple of different straps for their 5170 and they were some great combos.

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 Post subject: Re: SOTC
PostPosted: Mon Dec 24, 2018 1:36 pm 
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jnelson3097 wrote:
While I like the simple design of the Lange, I just don't know if I could fathom spending that on a dress watch unless I'm wearing it 4 or 5 times a week. While I know they may not be at the same level, I'd almost rather buy a simple 3 hand Patek for a fraction of the cost and wear that.



Solid reasoning, except this endeavor has nothing to do with reason. It is quite the opposite, a purely irrational, emotional exercise. And the main emotion here is pleasure.


I am not sure how I should go about explaining what I'm after, but here is an attempt. There is something to be said to knowing, not for others sake, not show off or be recognized, but for your own self, that you have achieved the best at something you have attempted. I am attempting to create the perfect collection. There will be more extensive collections of course, but too much of a good thing can be detrimental, I seek a focused, diverse, high quality collection that covers what matters to me in the realm of horology. I don't want to bore you with all my choices and what I am planning for, but for the sake of explaining my reasoning, lets take the Navitimer. To me it represents one of the greatest watches of all time, and arguably the greatest chronograph. Yes, flight is not quite as an amazing an achievement as space travel, and reaching the moon at that, but it is having been far more useful to mankind, so far at least. I am still amazed every time I ride a plain and look out the window, how casual flying has become. How comfortable and luxurious. Even on a humble economy flight, you can order a meal, use a rest room, watch a movie, while flying. Think about it, it is amazing, not just flight itself, but how perfected it has become. Back in the day when the Navitimer was a crucial tool, pilots used this ingenious invention to help them navigate the skies. I don't wear my Brietling just to tell the time, but because it makes me relive those early years of man’s most important accomplishment, taming the skies. And that sense of enjoyment is personal, someone might prefer a vintage Navitimer that was actually used by a pilot. Though I do think that's cool, I love how mine both reminds me of that history and has been perfected by Breitling, with the wonderful in-house movement, amazing dial, crystal, strap, all the attention to detail. Breitling did a bang-up job with the Navitimer, and they should. Its their ace in the hole.

This might sound silly, and it is. Just as silly as appreciating art. Even the most wonderful painting done by the hands of the most talented painter would not come close to the accuracy of a photograph. Yet hundreds of millions of people flock to the Louvre every year to gawk at art, many moved to tears they get so emotional. I will do you one better, I have a very old Leica film camera that I bought used when I was in college. To this day, me and many people who see the film prints it produces find them much more beautiful than my state-of-the-art Nikon, with its unimaginable 35 megapixels. I cant explain why the imperfect grain of film or the ancient lens of Leica produce more enjoyable results, but they do. We humans are silly animals. Let’s put that behind us.


To stretch the art analogy to breaking point, and to prove just how silly I can be, I view some of my pieces as tools with significant histories that can be relieved when wearing them (don't get me started on Panerai, or Blancpain, or....) and others as expressions of an art form, my favorite art form. Someone might enjoy purchasing expensive art, I know someone who owns several paintings each worth hundreds of thousands of dollars. Crazy to me, a safe and enjoyable investment to him. Watch Making is the art form I enjoy the most, and that is a totally different category than tool watches (as enjoyable as they are).


In the realm of watches as an art form, what qualifies is very subjective and personal. No two people would agree I imagine, and I have seen some heated arguments that seemed over the top even to me. In this realm, the most common object of appreciation come from Patek, Lange, FP Journe and the like. From my experience, and I stress experience, reading about something online is not like experiencing it in person and understanding it, the most beautiful watch is my latest Patek, and the best is the Lange PLM, for reasons I mentioned in earlier posts. I doubt anyone has my view, and most will struggle to understand it.


In addition to the art is subjective argument, and to go back full circle to the start of this post, the price of the PLM is indeed insane, and I will not even attempt to justify it, not with the man hours involved, or the highly skilled labor salaries, or the focused research or intrinsic value or anything else, but by comparative value. I will not, anytime soon at least, own the world’s finest house, or most amazing car, or the fastest yacht. Any one of those would cost millions upon untold millions. But I can, tomorrow, own what I consider the finest time only watch, and the prettiest watch, and a side collection representing man's greatest accomplishments. For under 250K all said and done. And that, to me, and probably only me, is worth more than all those other things combined. It would make me happier. And that, fellow nutcases, makes it an absolute bargain.





Until the next Baselworld :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: SOTC
PostPosted: Mon Dec 24, 2018 3:35 pm 
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With that last post, I think it's safe to say you've 100% talked yourself into the ALS PLM! :lol: And good thing too IMO! :thumbsup:

When we start talking about art (in all it's forms), then rationality doesn't really come into it. Why did someone pay 200m USD for a Jackson Pollock drip painting a few years ago? Because the art meant something to them, and they could afford it : it's as simple as that. I'm pretty sure they could've bought a similar looking drip painting by someone else for a fraction of the price.... but that's hardly the point.

As I said earlier, if you settle for something else (especially as you're building your own "perfect collection"), then to just settle would be missing your own point of your collection.

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 24, 2018 3:49 pm 
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By the way - some incredible freebies from Patek there! :shock:

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 Post subject: Re: SOTC
PostPosted: Tue Dec 25, 2018 1:19 am 
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I went in to see the PLM in person today, the last remaining one on sale in the world. It was everything I said and more, except it was in gold. I was sure I had read that it was in Platinum! I talked to the AD, and according to him the first Richard Lange PLM came out in Rose Gold, the second in White Gold, the current model. The next, and last, iteration will be in Platinum.

This makes the current model, as far as being the ultimate time only watch ever made, a very temporary thing. I very much prefer Platinum, and this makes the WG a model with obsolescence built in. Take away that perfect time only concept, and the value crumbles away. It was very easy to decide against it.


I am rather disappointed, I had my heart set on buying it. What is worse, how much will the effin platinum version be?????!!!! :wowzers

I was discussing that with the salesperson, who was trained in Glashutte by Lange. If we take history as a guide, Platinum in a case of this size will increase price by no less than 20K. If they opt to do an Enamel dial, which they have done according to him on all PLM platinum watches, that's another 20-30 K. We are talking about a possible 120K watch now when its released in the next 1-2 years. Dear Lord!

What's most amazing is that every PLM version has sold out so far. Lange really broke the code on ultra high end limited editions. Still far cheaper than an RM11 in white gold. But dear lord! There are a ton of watch nuts just like me. I think its safe to say this industry is safe for another 50 years.


Anyways, regardless of my choice to forego the PLM for now. I found this very cool article while researching:

https://www.******.com/articles/a-lan ... st-because

That is one lucky collector. Good for him!!! :superman:

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 Post subject: Re: SOTC
PostPosted: Tue Dec 25, 2018 6:58 pm 
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Glad you are on a good track and great incentives to keep going! Great collection!


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 26, 2018 6:44 am 
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Thank you for the kind words. Very good of you!

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 26, 2018 3:20 pm 
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Altair wrote:
I went in to see the PLM in person today, the last remaining one on sale in the world. It was everything I said and more, except it was in gold. I was sure I had read that it was in Platinum! I talked to the AD, and according to him the first Richard Lange PLM came out in Rose Gold, the second in White Gold, the current model. The next, and last, iteration will be in Platinum.

This makes the current model, as far as being the ultimate time only watch ever made, a very temporary thing. I very much prefer Platinum, and this makes the WG a model with obsolescence built in. Take away that perfect time only concept, and the value crumbles away. It was very easy to decide against it.


I am rather disappointed, I had my heart set on buying it. What is worse, how much will the effin platinum version be?????!!!! :wowzers

I was discussing that with the salesperson, who was trained in Glashutte by Lange. If we take history as a guide, Platinum in a case of this size will increase price by no less than 20K. If they opt to do an Enamel dial, which they have done according to him on all PLM platinum watches, that's another 20-30 K. We are talking about a possible 120K watch now when its released in the next 1-2 years. Dear Lord!

What's most amazing is that every PLM version has sold out so far. Lange really broke the code on ultra high end limited editions. Still far cheaper than an RM11 in white gold. But dear lord! There are a ton of watch nuts just like me. I think its safe to say this industry is safe for another 50 years.


Anyways, regardless of my choice to forego the PLM for now. I found this very cool article while researching:

https://www.******.com/articles/a-lange ... st-because

That is one lucky collector. Good for him!!! :superman:

Strange as it may sound when we're talking about the sums of money we are for this one.....but I think you made the right decision to pass on the WG version in lieu of the forthcoming (even more expensive) platinum version. If you want the ultimate then you have to wait for the ultimate version.

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