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PostPosted: Mon Jun 07, 2010 3:27 am 
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We are i think speaking and debating a mere wristwatch ........and everyone has their special reasons for wanting a certain wristwatch....
"the all watches tell the time" syndrome will always be around to criticise but how many would have a particular brand if they could afford one, i waited almost 50 years for the piece i now wear proudly,i didnt speculate on the technicallities of the piece but i did hang on to the feeling it gave me all those years ago when i first tried one on.
Yes it is a wristwatch, in my eyes a beautiful item which i was willing to pay an extortionate amount for (in wristwatch circles) now i have got my piece any changes to the newer models dont apply as i have what i strived for all those years ago.............to be as interested as most people are in here,look at the piece that first captured your interest and your first purchase...........it still looks good even now!!!
Even though its a mere wristwatch. Save a fortune stick with your first choice.........Mine just happened to be a Breitling........ :wink:

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 07, 2010 3:31 am 
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I always respect your opinion Altair, and broadly speaking I agree with the main thrust of your post, and I certainly agree that I'd also like to see Breitling catering for both existing and new fans alike. Also, you make a good point about exclusivity as well. Panerai and Rolex for example both enjoy that "exclusive brand" kudos partially as a result of artificially restricting supply. Breitling's "stack 'em high, sell 'em cheap" ethos (when you factor in the crazy US AD discounting) does not create exclusivity. But as I've said on here before, a lot depends on where Breitling are looking to position themselves in the market..... and at the moment I'm not sure where that is. From a selfish position I'd love them to become more exclusive, but I also appreciate that it may then price a lot of people out of the market. It's a difficult one to argue with any sense of impartiality..........

However, one area that I do disagree with you on is the B01 movement. Like you I was pretty disappointed with it when it first turned up as visually it's configuration was identical to the B23 movement in the Navitimer, and the lack of apparent ingenuity really irritated me. I remember wondering why that hadn't done just something a little differently - like have the small seconds at 6 for example. Just something to set it apart visually. However, I now know that my initial reaction was exactly the same as it was to the Chronomat B01 itself - in other words I had this image and wish-list of what I wanted to see, and frankly whatever they came up with it probably wouldn't have matched up to my expectations. However I can now appreciate the B01 movement a heck of a lot more, and IMO it has some superb feature - the 3 day power reserve, the column wheel chronograph, the date change protection (which is clearly going to save newbie owners a fortune, considering the amount of posts we get regarding that subject on here!). Additionally, the fact that it IS quite traditional in configuration means that when it eventually makes it's way into a Navi, it will look right at home - surely that's a massive plus point.

Additionally, most manufacturers seem to go for the more simple non-chronograph route when they decide to make their own movement : not so with Breitling. They jumped in at the deep-end and created a movement in the style that they are famous for - the chronograph.

So while I agree that their new models over the last few years have been pretty lacklustre - a new coloured dial or a rubber bezel here, a dip in the "job-lot" DLC tank there, etc - their one truly saving grace has been the B01 movement. OK, so their decision not to roll it out into other models as yet is a pain for those of us who DO care about what's going on inside a watch, but new models will undoubtedly come in time. I've had it confirmed that the B01 movement will be cornerstone of the high-end Breitling range for many years to come, so there is definitely plenty to look forward to in future years IMO. It'll just be a hassle waiting for them!

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 07, 2010 3:51 am 
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I agree with Driver8 (I just cannot type that much/well)

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 07, 2010 5:11 am 
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I think the problem with in house movements is that it's a lot of investment by the company, years of development, etc but then when it comes out it's difficult to 'wow' consumers. Most of the stuff has been done already, and unless you really go 'out there' you can only rework the existing stuff, and 'out there' isn't where you start with in house movements.

The chronograph is a complexity, although I think that Breitling had to make it's first in house movement a chroni - that is what they are after all. The power reserve is made more impressive given that it is a chrono, although it's not a quantum leap - I would still like to see that grow further.

The column wheel is different, I'm not sure it's an advancement, that's the way it always used to be after all, although it is seen as a feature of many high end movements.

I'm willing to give Breitling the benefit of the doubt on the movement, but I hope that it becomes a 'platform' for future advancements - I'll be disappointed if the B01 is unchanged or has no variants 5 years from now.


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 07, 2010 9:11 am 
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Tim S wrote:
Otto wrote:
If I get another Breitling any time soon (and this is something I didn't see myself saying until recently) it might well be a quartz one. Say what you will about quartz, the Professional line fits in with what I think are the best qualities of the brand, and they represent something you can't get anywhere else.

You know what Otto, despite the fact that I'm really not into Quartz that much, there is something about the EM that grabs me. I like what you're saying!

Excellent points here, since the EM was my very first love! :mrgreen:

Speaking as a new fan who doesn't have the emotional attachment of previous/vintage Breitling designs, I think we must also consider what a great bang-for-buck value most Breitlings are -- compared to many other brands in the same price range -- especially if you take into account the US AD discounts & the size of US market.

To remain true to THESE consumers who definitely look at the value of the brand, it will be hard for Breitling to introduce "advancements" without also significantly increasing the price points -- other than cosmetic changes like the rubber bezels, dlc, etc!

Breitling's prices are NOT comparable to Rolex, Panerai, JLC, or IWC. Most Breitling models' prices are not nearly high enough to include the B01 in-house movement price premium. And face it, the vast majority of fine watch buyers are not WISes -- I sincerely doubt many would be willing to pay a price premium for the best-selling SA for instance, just because the movement is in-house!

(Driver8's info that only the higher end ranges would get the B01 movement sounded spot on, imho.)

I would like to also mention the general lament on the demise of the B-1. I don't think enough time has passed for Breitling to be able to re-introduce the B-1 as a remake of a classic without all the non-fans complaining "What? Breitling can't even come out with a new design?! What were they thinking?!". Plus, consider also, for it to be discontinued, it must not be selling well enough despite the (loud but apparently minority) fans.

So please, stop beating up on the current quartz line like the beautiful Airwolf Raven, or the new Chronospace. They ain't B-1s, and that's a good thing!! :mrgreen:

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 07, 2010 11:37 am 
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great post altair. i too love the brand but it is definitely main stream. hahaha i wonder how many SA's have been made and sold since they first came out. cant help it though i still think that the SA is probably the best bang for the buck out there.


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 07, 2010 1:05 pm 
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I have given considerable thought about what Altair, Roff and others have expressed about Breitling and their present direction. I think the biggest problem is that the WIS in all of us (or most of us) would like to see Breitling design and build watches that represent their original intensions (Instruments for Professionals) and not pander to the masses of the impulse buyer. To be known in the watch community as the innovator that they once were. Sadly (from my viewpoint) they are not going this route and instead are more concerned with generating higher sales numbers from the new (and most likely one time) customer and leaving the traditional designs and collectors behind. Now I will concede that there are several models that haven’t changed .....yet.....and hopefully Breitling wont DLC every model or give all the bezels the Buck Rogers treatment. But the last few years of offerings show us exactly where they want to take the brand.

From a technical aspect I think we are hoping, wanting and asking too much from them. WIS's opinions are a little different than the fashion watch customers. The WIS might start with Breitling (like I did), because of a general great bang for the buck, but the WIS's eyes start wondering to brands and grade of workmanship. Most of the other brands are completely unknown outside of the watch collector world. The average guy (or gal) walking down the street have never heard of JLC, IWC, Panerai, Patek, Vacheron or Zenith (other than the brand of their TV). All of which are considered to be of higher quality than Breitling and all make their own movements. Some of us WIS who admire the "other" brands wish that our beloved Breitling could move a notch or two up the ladder and (without going into the $10,000+ area), offer watch models that are of higher quality, in house movement and offer new designs that run true with the historical looks and function of the previous models. Wanna know why we don’t have display backs, because Breitling doesn’t decorate the movements to a high enough caliber in order to be worthy of being displayed.

Unfortunately these wishes aren’t going to happen. We ask too much. Breitling is never going to be in the same league as IWC and the like. They are a different type of watchmaker and I guess I have come to grips with that. They dont even use the same grade of stainless as Rolex, for cryin out loud. I mean really, how much more would it really add to the price of each watch if they bumped up the metal grade to be on par with Rolex?? Not much, I would guess.

It all boils down to this.... Breitling have made and still make a wide range of great watches, that appeal to a wide variety of people and are a pretty good buy for what you get. They are not now, or probably ever will be considered in the same league as the IWC, JLC, AP, GO, Panerai, Zenith or even Rolex (in most ways). If you want a higher quality watch than what Breitling offers, you will have to look at the other brands. They are exclusive to higher end and Breitling will not be joining them.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 07, 2010 1:21 pm 
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Altair wrote:
Let me start out by warning all you die hard Breitling fans that there is going to be some criticism of the current Breitling organisation in this post, if you are easily offended I suggest you dont read this thread :D

I am sorry, but I just need to vent! I have always loved Breitlings, and still do many models. In fact I am looking at getting a Navitimer model soon. I mean there really is so much to like about the brand, the amazing history is right up there with the best of them, technical innovation, military and civilian flight association, space flight, excellent external quality for the price range, attention to detail, and just fantastic bracelets and straps to boot!

I guess it is those very reasons that make me so agitated with the current affairs of Breitling. I want to enjoy the brand and be as enthusiastic as I used to be but the direction Breitling SA is taking is just not for me. For one thing the catering to the masses with designs that impress the non-WIS but will most definitely disappoint the hard core fans, Galactic my eye.

Another thing is the gross mass production of almost all models, I cant remember the last time I walked into an AD and did not find a model I was looking for, I mean really anyone know how many Super Avengers they actually made? They must have made a fortune out of those!!! That also hurts resale like you wouldn't believe, I should know :lol:

Then there is the technical innovation, or lack thereof. The B01 doesn't cut it in my book, too similar to the 7750 and only introduced after Hayek threatened to cut off their supply. No points in my book, Just a way to make sure they can keep on introducing more "comfort watches" how about some real technical innovation like Breitling used to be known for?

Well there you have it, those are the reasons I love and hate Breitling, the curse of my watch collecting habit. I suppose I do have a passion for the brand even though I will not admit it, hence why I am now looking for a used Navitimer World. But it is when I compare it to my other favorite brands, IWC, JLC Panerai, Rolex, and Omega, I see such high potential for Breitling yet I know the brand will keep going for the easy buck. Look at how Panerai has developed their in house calibers, introduced fantastic new materials, inovated AND kept the traditionalist happy all at once and not producing more than 1000 units of a single model per year. I just get the sense of pride and honest love for the brand the people working there have. They could have introduced a 127 look alike, thrown in an ETA something and sold 5000 a year at 9000. I guarantee they wouldn't see the store shelves and that comes to what, 45 000 000 in sales? Whearas if Breitling thought they would sell we would be debating the merits of the new Mickey Mouse-themed, PVD-dipped, Giganto-Vengers.

I hope there is a change in Breitling management soon, and that someone with an iota of integrity and love for the brand as it used to be comes into power and gives me back my Breitling, the Breiling that pilots, scientists, and military men and enthusiasts used to reach for, the "Instruments for professionals" Breitling . Until then, I will always have a few of the older models in my collection, I might even start visiting the Vintage section soon, and enjoying the efforts of other brands that don't cater to the whims of Johny "hey mom I just graduated" Public.

If anyone finds my post offensive, I am deeply sorry. I do not mean to bash a brand to the audience of its fans, and I am not. Again my objections are against the direction of the organisation in contrast to the potential of the brand. This is just my opinion, and it is worth much less than two cents :lol:

:yeahthat

how don't quote you!
FYI, i just bought a Breitiling Duograph, and i LOVE it!
http://www.breitlingsource.com/watch_de ... r_113.html

d

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 07, 2010 9:34 pm 
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Good posts - interesting comments...!

Just want to add some points to Bronco's post: All your mentioned brands have inhouse calibers throughout their range, Breitling just started with inhouse. If our criterion for "higher qualitity" is "inhouse", then we just have to wait another couple of years (as mentioned before, it doesn't happen in a short time, because new customers have to be found, new markets to be gained). Actually I am glad, that Breitling is not in the same (pricing and horological) league as IWC, JLC, AP etc. They are more in the same (pricing and horological) league as Omega. Rolex is a special thing anyway and cannot be compared with other brands, except maybe with Omega (mainly because of the global brand power and size of the company). For me, Breitling still offer the quality I expect and I am looking forward to observing their future direction (technically and design-related). Quality-related they have been offering more than I expected and I like their airplane-related brand message.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 14, 2010 10:43 am 
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Driver8 wrote:
their one truly saving grace has been the B01 movement.


Amen to that D8. :yeahthat

You know, what I admire about you is that you are much more open-minded than quite a few on this forum :wink: and that you have the courage to admit open and wide your change of mind. :bow: :bow: :bow:

But in the end, as you have said so many times, it's only a matter of personal taste. Point is, does this personal taste evolve or does is stay for ever the same?

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 14, 2010 12:40 pm 
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F14D_Tomcat wrote:
Driver8 wrote:
their one truly saving grace has been the B01 movement.


Amen to that D8. :yeahthat

You know, what I admire about you is that you are much more open-minded than quite a few on this forum :wink: and that you have the courage to admit open and wide your change of mind. :bow: :bow: :bow:

But in the end, as you have said so many times, it's only a matter of personal taste. Point is, does this personal taste evolve or does is stay for ever the same?

Thanks for your kind words Tomcat (well they were kind towards me! :wink: ) - I appreciate it. In terms of admitting to a change of mind, well.... I've eaten a few slices of "humble pie" on here in the past, so one more tasty slice won't hurt! :wink: :lol:

To be honest though, I'm not sure if it's a case of people not being open-minded : a lot of people simply just don't like a particular thing and that's that. I don't think that's necessarily an open-mindedness thing, it's just a preference thing IMO. And to be fair, I've only become a bit of a Chronomat B01 fan since I was looking after that one for my mate for a couple of weeks.... and of course not everyone has had that kind of opportunity. I also bet that a lot of people still wouldn't change their mind even if they HAD the opportunity I had, but that's totally fine by me.

But anyway, I can't speak for anyone else but myself, so yeah I admit I've become a lot more of a Chronomat B01 fan lately.

<Right, what did I do with that freshly baked humble pie? :lol:>

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 14, 2010 1:24 pm 
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tomcat, you are becoming boring with your 'no open mind people' to all people that don't like the your B-01 you are loving...


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 14, 2010 9:01 pm 
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electrosound wrote:
tomcat, you are becoming boring with your 'no open mind people' to all people that don't like the your B-01 you are loving...d


Seems my "open-minded" comment hit right on :wink:

You're not missing a chance to attack and diminish the B01 you hate, so maybe you should wake up and look ahead and not in the past. :)

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 14, 2010 9:06 pm 
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Altair,

You're a very passionate man and a serious watch collector. Therefore your opinions must be seriously considered -- even if one doesn't agree with everything you say. It's really hard to predict where Breitling will be, say, ten years from now. Even five years from now. I guess that's why I plan on keeping my Steelfish and Skyland. They represent a classic Breitling look the company may, indeed, regret departing from in the future.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 14, 2010 9:16 pm 
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drax wrote:
I guess that's why I plan on keeping my Steelfish and Skyland. They represent a classic Breitling look the company may, indeed, regret departing from in the future.


I can't imagine they'd ever completely drop the rider tab / 80s Chronomat / whatever you want to call it look. It's a classic look. I'll keep my Superoceans in case they do, though.

I don't know what I'll buy if Breitling gets rid of that style. Maybe I'll get Sinn, or a Doxa, or a Panerai.

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