The Breitling Watch Source Forums

Breitling Watch Information Forums, Navitimer, Chronomat
 
It is currently Sat Feb 23, 2019 6:03 am

All times are UTC - 8 hours




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 15 posts ] 
Author Message
PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2019 10:55 pm 
Offline
Contributing Member
Contributing Member
User avatar

Joined: Wed Sep 12, 2007 10:24 am
Posts: 2608
Likes: 1 post
Liked in: 45 posts
Location: Dhahran KSA
I was at the Vacheron AD today, I am so taken by the Overseas that has only exaggerated my remote love affair with the Limited Edition Excellence Platine Annual Calendar, and I felt the need to stop by and remind my AD to make sure he gets one for me. It is an absolute must have for me.

Anyway, they had the Traditionnelle Chronograph Perpetual Calendar, and I had the chance to drool over it. Vacheron is a company I did not pay much attention to, but I have to say I am starting to really fall in love with the brand as a whole. Just an exemplary take on traditional watchmaking with abundant elegance and understatement, I would say they are a better fit to compete with Lange over Patek.

This particular watch was out of my price range for this year, but I was rather enjoying examining it. The movement felt extremely luxurious and looked absolutely amazing! A manual chornograph PC is right up my ally. I mentioned how fantastic the movement looked and felt to the AD and he mentioned, much to my surprise, that it was a Lemania base movement. I was pretty shocked, a sourced movement in a watch costing north of 150K???


The argument from the AD is that Vacheron was above having to prove they could produce an in house movement, being Genevas oldest manufacture and having mastery over every watchmaking field, from movement design to finishing portrayed in other lesser models. For their flagship model they decided that the absolute best would have to be done, so they chose what they believed to be the very best hand wound chronograph movement, rebuilt it, finished it to within an inch of its life, and added a PC complication in a heavenly 43mm case.


These ultra high end brands do things that seem really out there, like Lange producing a Tourbillon Datograph PC where you cant see the Tourbillon and Vacheron with this. The results certainly speak for themselves, and the watch is perfection in every way, but I just cant accept a non in house movement at that price point.


Either way, it is something to think about. The horrid days when ETA movements where over produced and brands got lazy, popping them with minimial finishing and refinement in a case and calling it a day are behind us, but does going from a proven, legendary movement to an inferior movement really count as an upgrade? On one hand the sense of value and completeness is greater with an in house, but not if it is at the sake of reliability, accuracy, or miantainability.

I found this very good article from the great guys at ****** on this specific watch:

https://www.******.com/articles/vache ... l-calendar

If this piece had an in house movement that had the same characteristics as the Lemania powered one I would be scheming as we speak to find a way to upgrade my IWC PC, but as it stands the IWC suddenly has become a more valuable watch in my eyes, and getting to be a better value all the time.

_________________
Certified watch nut.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2019 1:12 am 
Offline
Contributing Member
Contributing Member
User avatar

Joined: Wed Sep 12, 2007 10:24 am
Posts: 2608
Likes: 1 post
Liked in: 45 posts
Location: Dhahran KSA
Sorry, is that particular website on the block list? or is it just a precaution against spammers?

_________________
Certified watch nut.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2019 1:43 am 
Offline
Contributing Moderator
Contributing Moderator
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jul 24, 2007 11:39 am
Posts: 12223
Likes: 65 posts
Liked in: 240 posts
Location: Rip-Off Britain
Altair wrote:
Sorry, is that particular website on the block list? or is it just a precaution against spammers?

The site beginning with H has long been blocked by Admin, Altair.

_________________
Driver8

Site Moderator
Image


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2019 2:09 am 
Offline
Contributing Moderator
Contributing Moderator
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jul 24, 2007 11:39 am
Posts: 12223
Likes: 65 posts
Liked in: 240 posts
Location: Rip-Off Britain
The in-house vs outsourced question is difficult for me to answer when it comes to ultra-high-end (read: ultra expensive) pieces. Instinctively though I'd apply the same "rule" that I apply to watches in my particular price range (max £10K)

And that rule is:- In these days of "expensive" watches being absolutely nothing more than luxury trinkets (i.e. no-one actually NEEDS a wrist watch these days) then above a certain price point ALL watches should be in-house, unless they have a very specific historic reason for not being so.

I'm sure some will disagree with me here, but I totally disagree with your AD saying that because VC have "mastered watchmaking" they have nothing to prove. By that rationale they could simply buy a catalogue case, a bog standard ETA, some generic hands, a sterile dial and just stick their name on it, and say they have nothing to prove!

Now I'm certainly not saying that ALL in-house movements are better than ALL outsourced movements - far from it. I'm simply saying that since watches are totally unnecessary I want to be paying for more than just a pretty case, even if it means it's more expensive to buy and service, and may even be less reliable. Weird huh? Obviously I fully appreciate the fact that VC aren't just chucking a bog standard movement inside a case here, but if I was buying one, I'd want something that had ONLY been touched by the hands of VC, from conception, through the drawing board and manufacture, to casing up.

It's like the AP ROO. The base movement is the in-house calibre 3120, but the chrono module is by Dubois Depraz. Again there is nothing wrong with DD or the module (in fact it's fantastic), but the fact is it's not made by AP. And no matter how much I like the ROO, it makes me think twice about striving to pick one up. Yes, I realise I'm missing out on some good watches with this mindset, but we all have things that are important to us in this hobby.

And when it comes to ETA's I won't pay more than Steinhart-money for one these days. I don't care what the level of alleged finishing is, and how many components have been swapped out : if the movement's origins are outsourced, and it's price is above a certain point (and that's only £2,500 for me - i.e. Tudor BB level), then I don't want to know.

Sure this argument of mine may not be rational, but then again what the heck is rational about any of us buying tiny objects for more than the price of a car (or house!) to wear on our wrists, that use anachronistic technology to do something (i.e. tell the time) with inherently less accuracy than something that we all carry in our pockets everyday (our phones)!? None of it makes any sense! :lol:

_________________
Driver8

Site Moderator
Image


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2019 6:43 am 
Offline
Contributing Member
Contributing Member
User avatar

Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2009 5:02 pm
Posts: 2197
Likes: 20 posts
Liked in: 13 posts
Location: Fort Worth, Texas
Clearly a phenomenal watch and interesting article (I get where they're coming from) but despite that opinion; in general I could not fathom buying a $150K+ watch with anything less than an in-house movement; no matter how historic, accurate, or relevant the explanation is: a watch that expensive should be manufactured in-house IMO and it smells like somewhat of a margin play for the Company, despite the no-doubt tremendous work that went into modifying the movement.

Now I know that in-house has a different meaning for everyone, and most people that can afford watches in that price bracket probably don't care; but for me I'd like something made by the Company that shows their very best even if not as accurate (to Drivers point).

The in-house question in general is probably more applicable for me in the ~$10K price range i.e. at ~$10K I can understand if the movement is either modified or some parts are sourced externally as margins are tighter and you can't necessarily expect the full in-house treatment (excluding some Companies) - in this case you're likely buying for more than just the movement; whereas at higher prices, when you're likely buying a watch that is more specific, in lower runs, or made by a specific brand; I would trend towards wanting more in-house.

I don't get massively hung up on the in-house question as I'm not generally purchasing in a price bracket where that is a critical factor :lol: but it's still a very relevant question and discussion point and I can understand that you feel lesser about the watch Altair having found out about the movement.

_________________
Happines is Good Health and a Bad Memory.
"Ingrid Bergman"


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2019 8:12 am 
Offline
Contributing Member
Contributing Member
User avatar

Joined: Wed Sep 12, 2007 10:24 am
Posts: 2608
Likes: 1 post
Liked in: 45 posts
Location: Dhahran KSA
I completely agree, when I discover a Vacheron in person I am usually surprised it does not have more of a following. Yet this is their one watch I am surprised sells at all, especially considering it competes again the unbelievable Patek 5270P!


You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.

_________________
Certified watch nut.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2019 8:14 am 
Offline
Contributing Member
Contributing Member
User avatar

Joined: Wed Sep 12, 2007 10:24 am
Posts: 2608
Likes: 1 post
Liked in: 45 posts
Location: Dhahran KSA
Man every time I look into that salmon dial PC chrono I lose it. I am seriously considering letting my triple face Cartier Skeleton + IWC PC to towards that piece. One watch to rule them all.

_________________
Certified watch nut.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2019 9:12 am 
Offline
Breitling Fanatic
Breitling Fanatic

Joined: Sun Jan 25, 2009 6:27 pm
Posts: 484
Likes: 39 posts
Liked in: 38 posts
On the in-house v third-party movement debate, Breitling offers at least a few data points about where the market is in terms of a willingness to pay for in-house over a third-party movement. These are in the latest releases where Breitling is offering substantially similar watches with two movement options at different price points. For example,

Navi 1 Chrono 41 at $6,690 vs. Navi 1 B01 Chrono 43 at $9,160. $2,470 premium for in-house.
Navi 8 Chrono 43 at $5,930 vs. Navi 8 B01 Chrono 43 at $8,080. $2,150 premium for in-house.
Premier Chorno 42 at $6,550 vs. Premier BO1 Chrono 42 at $8,700. $2,150 premium for in-house.
SOH II Chrono 44 at $6,240 vs. SOH II BO1 Chrono 44 at $7,990. $1,750 premium for in-house.

IWC now offers its pilots chorno and three hander watches with in-house movements, but at prices substantially similar to the third-party based movement. This, to me, appears to be more of a phasing in of anew movement whereas Breitling looks to be serving two different markets.

_________________
Current collection: Breitling Superocean Heritage I 46, Rolex Submariner, Swatch X ****** Sistem51


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Thu Jan 17, 2019 12:37 am 
Offline
Contributing Member
Contributing Member
User avatar

Joined: Wed Sep 12, 2007 10:24 am
Posts: 2608
Likes: 1 post
Liked in: 45 posts
Location: Dhahran KSA
Very interesting data, thank you for posting that.

I believe it comes down to manufacturing costs the brand has to bear. If you take the Cartier Santos line for example, no other company comes close to offering an in house movement watch with that level of finishing for 6-7k. When you consider that Cartier is the worlds largest jewelry brand, and have already invested and got their ROI on equipment and training it makes sense, it’s wht they have done for hundreds of years, if Omega where to introduce a dress watch with upgraded finishing on the same level they would have substantial costs to bear, that would be transferred to the end consumer.

Same goes for JLC, look at their higher end complications, if you thought the IWC PC was a bargain you are in for a treat. It’s a shame they don’t offer a bit more contemporary designed cases.

Additionally, I believe Breitlings in house movements are more complex, which surely account for some of the additional cost. IWC has had in house movements for a very long time, which is probably why they can switch to a new production line at the same cost. Heck, it might be even cheaper for them if they streamline the production line and produce in bulk. I have owned a great many pieces from IWC, and they all have very similar movement aesthetics, meaning that a winding gear for example is produced in vast quantities for all their watches. That also drastically reduces cost.

I think Breitling is just making us early adopters pay for the equipment investment and R&D. Goes for most new products.

_________________
Certified watch nut.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Thu Jan 17, 2019 5:01 am 
Offline
Contributing Member
Contributing Member
User avatar

Joined: Wed Sep 12, 2007 10:24 am
Posts: 2608
Likes: 1 post
Liked in: 45 posts
Location: Dhahran KSA
I will add, to IWC's great credit, they have an uncanny ability to produce movements that are relatively simple yet perfrom exceptionally well. With the exception of the 7-day fiasco, and the less than stellar after sales service they provided Driver, they have done very well in that regard.

I really do like the way IWC have kept themselves relevant yet maintained classical watchmaking and design, a difficult balance. IWC are close, but they seem to swing from oversized to diminutive case sizes generation to generation. Uncanny how movement variables don't seem to matter, its as if they can bend the laws of watchmaking to their whim!

_________________
Certified watch nut.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2019 3:12 am 
Offline
AM Owners Club Mod
AM Owners Club Mod
User avatar

Joined: Wed May 21, 2008 5:38 am
Posts: 1078
Likes: 5 posts
Liked in: 15 posts
Altair wrote:
I will add, to IWC's great credit, they have an uncanny ability to produce movements that are relatively simple yet perfrom exceptionally well. With the exception of the 7-day fiasco, and the less than stellar after sales service they provided Driver, they have done very well in that regard.

I really do like the way IWC have kept themselves relevant yet maintained classical watchmaking and design, a difficult balance. IWC are close, but they seem to swing from oversized to diminutive case sizes generation to generation. Uncanny how movement variables don't seem to matter, its as if they can bend the laws of watchmaking to their whim!


i have to admit i was glad they sorted the 7 day movements by the time i got my 5009 and 5007. i would like the add a BPPC and Portuguese PC and i think i would be happy with my IWC collection (maybe a minute repeater too)


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2019 3:14 am 
Offline
Contributing Member
Contributing Member
User avatar

Joined: Wed Sep 12, 2007 10:24 am
Posts: 2608
Likes: 1 post
Liked in: 45 posts
Location: Dhahran KSA
alex** wrote:
Altair wrote:
I will add, to IWC's great credit, they have an uncanny ability to produce movements that are relatively simple yet perfrom exceptionally well. With the exception of the 7-day fiasco, and the less than stellar after sales service they provided Driver, they have done very well in that regard.

I really do like the way IWC have kept themselves relevant yet maintained classical watchmaking and design, a difficult balance. IWC are close, but they seem to swing from oversized to diminutive case sizes generation to generation. Uncanny how movement variables don't seem to matter, its as if they can bend the laws of watchmaking to their whim!


i have to admit i was glad they sorted the 7 day movements by the time i got my 5009 and 5007. i would like the add a BPPC and Portuguese PC and i think i would be happy with my IWC collection (maybe a minute repeater too)


Minute repeater, nice!

I would recomd branching out to JLC though, I did not consider them early enough and came to regret it later in my watch collecting journey. Same value for money as IWC if not better, and finer finishing by some margin!

_________________
Certified watch nut.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2019 6:39 am 
Offline
AM Owners Club Mod
AM Owners Club Mod
User avatar

Joined: Wed May 21, 2008 5:38 am
Posts: 1078
Likes: 5 posts
Liked in: 15 posts
Altair wrote:
alex** wrote:
Altair wrote:
I will add, to IWC's great credit, they have an uncanny ability to produce movements that are relatively simple yet perfrom exceptionally well. With the exception of the 7-day fiasco, and the less than stellar after sales service they provided Driver, they have done very well in that regard.

I really do like the way IWC have kept themselves relevant yet maintained classical watchmaking and design, a difficult balance. IWC are close, but they seem to swing from oversized to diminutive case sizes generation to generation. Uncanny how movement variables don't seem to matter, its as if they can bend the laws of watchmaking to their whim!


i have to admit i was glad they sorted the 7 day movements by the time i got my 5009 and 5007. i would like the add a BPPC and Portuguese PC and i think i would be happy with my IWC collection (maybe a minute repeater too)


Minute repeater, nice!

I would recomd branching out to JLC though, I did not consider them early enough and came to regret it later in my watch collecting journey. Same value for money as IWC if not better, and finer finishing by some margin!


i agree and JLC is on my radar unfortunately the models i would consider are at the higher end of the 'want list' being the extreme lab 2 and the Duometre.

i cant find a reverso to get excited about and the JLC PC are almost too elegant and small


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2019 7:45 am 
Offline
Contributing Member
Contributing Member
User avatar

Joined: Wed Sep 12, 2007 10:24 am
Posts: 2608
Likes: 1 post
Liked in: 45 posts
Location: Dhahran KSA
The Reverso is not for us guys who started out with sport watches. Although I enjoy 40MM dress watches now, I just couldn't get along with the shape of the watch on my wrist, and it was the largest 986 LE Reverso. Shame, as it is actually the very first sport watch historically and an amazingly well made watch!

I do hope Jaeger go back to experimenting with the Reverso line in new shapes as they have before. In the mean time, I can wholeheartedly recommend the 2018 Polaris Chronograph WT in 44MM. I actually think that is the best watch ever made, definitely the very best value. Gorgeous looks, universal application, fantastic chronograph, perfectly implemented world time function, significant history, excellent case and movement finishing, sapphire case back, can be had for less than a simple Submariner, 10 bar water resistance, ruber-calf-crocodile strap options as well as amazing bracelet, I can keep going but I have to go to the office....


Seriously, that watch is a no brainer! Just buy it and get a few straps for it.

_________________
Certified watch nut.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Sun Jan 27, 2019 10:25 am 
Offline
Breitling Maniac
Breitling Maniac
User avatar

Joined: Thu Oct 24, 2013 1:42 pm
Posts: 1088
Likes: 1459 posts
Liked in: 1443 posts
Altair wrote:
In the mean time, I can wholeheartedly recommend the 2018 Polaris Chronograph WT in 44MM. I actually think that is the best watch ever made, definitely the very best value. Gorgeous looks, universal application, fantastic chronograph, perfectly implemented world time function, significant history, excellent case and movement finishing, sapphire case back, can be had for less than a simple Submariner, 10 bar water resistance, ruber-calf-crocodile strap options as well as amazing bracelet, I can keep going but I have to go to the office....


Seriously, that watch is a no brainer! Just buy it and get a few straps for it.


The Polaris Chronograph WT is a beautiful watch, and combines a chronograph and world timer in a wonderful package. In fact, in my view, JLC got something right that PP got wrong with its 5930G, in that JLC places the world time hours ring directly next to the cities ring (rather than placing the chapter ring in between these two, as occurs on the PP).

There is one major flaw, however, that is a complete deal breaker for me -- namely, the bar that bi-sects the dial relative to the world time hours ring. I have read that this feature serves a functional purpose, and that, given the architecture of the movement, there was not room to place it out of sight underneath the dial. The result is a bar that interrupts the reading of the chronograph subdials to a significant degree, and that gets in the way of the otherwise beautiful aesthetic of this piece. Honestly, were it not for that element, I would probably have pulled the trigger on this one by now.

_________________
Cheers,
Jim


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  

Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 15 posts ] 

All times are UTC - 8 hours


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 5 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Jump to:  
 


Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group