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PostPosted: Sat Jan 12, 2019 8:14 pm 
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The new case is very interesting but the dials are horrendous. I think at the price point they set them at it's going to be a very tough sell.

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 12, 2019 8:32 pm 
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natesen wrote:
I agree with driver that on a 3 hander there is no excuse. The whole dial is blank, why would they not put it at 6? I don't really mind it on a Chrono because there is so much else going on that the date can get lost. But a 3 hander it sticks out to me.

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Its not about placement as a choice but the way a movement is designed. There are considerations that relate to thickness and complexity that would make the placement of the date wheel mechanism more convenient for the watchmakers at 4:30 or alternatively (but never done as far as I know) 7:30.

Not every brand can do what JLC or Lange do and simply come out with a brand new movement every time while maintaining or even reducing size. Patek also mostly. But that's it, not even VC or AP have that level of watchmaking prowess.


We have to remember that these considerations present watchmakers with difficult choices, replacing the date wheel mechanism while maintaining other criteria could mean the redesign of the whole movement, that R&D and overly complex mechanism could increase prices substantially. Look at the difference between Lange and Glashutte Original for example. The first have mastered movement design to correspond to pragmatic AND visual criteria. GO compromise heavily, and split the difference with us. But keep the external finishing and most of the movement finishing.

I wanted perfection in my daily Annual Calendar and my dress chrono, so I got the Lange and the Patek models that achieved just that. For the majority of my sport and leisure watches, I prefer a little compromise and reduced cost. Perfection is very very expensive! I should know, I just traded in 12 high end surplus watches for one "perfect" sport watch. The Lange Datograph Double Split. Lange had to increase the size to 43.5mm and remove the big date mechanism yet maintained all other criteria to achieve the double split. That’s great for ONE watch, as a super grail, that you trade and save for. But what if you also wanted a five watch, a sailing watch etc or you just did not want to pay up.

Sorry to ramble on, all I am saying we have to understand the challenges these companies have.

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 12, 2019 8:49 pm 
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I agree with you for the most part on this one as there are absolutely going to be design compromises and I don't know all the internal workings that could impact that decision on each individual watch. I only see the surface level and don't know the background of the designs.

But in the case of a 3 hander which is what I was referring to there is more of a choice as there are not other complications that get in the way. The date wheel more than likely goes all the way around the interior of the movement as most non big date wheels do as it needs to fit 31 numbers . Therefore they could have placed the date anywhere along the exterior of the dial. Here it seems they chose to have the applied 6 take priority over the date. So the choices here were to have the balance of 4 applied Arabic markers with a non symmetrical date, have only 3 markers and put the date in place of the 3 or 6, or have no date at all. In this case I prefer either of the 2 options that don't place the date at 430. But that's just my opinion and it only applies to 3 handers. I don't prefer the 430 date on any watch, but it also doesn't bother me and would never detract me from owning say the VC overseas chrono in blue that you mentioned elsewhere. I wish there was an in house big date at 12, but I don't mind the 430 date there and it would never be a deal breaker for me owning that watch.

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 12, 2019 10:19 pm 
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Sorry, I do not mean to continue to argue, but I do feel compelled to mention that watches in a particular line are for the most part a derivative of the same base movement (I believe that is the case here) and functions are built on top of the base. For assembly line considerations as well as training and maintenance they have to think of all the watches from the base to the perpetual if they are to be produced in large quantity.


Anyway, your valid point that the 4:30 date is not optimal is well taken, and AP will listen if enough of its customers have that same concern, I was just reminding everyone of how complicated and dificult this industry can be. Also, I am focusing on the very fact that AP is trying to freshen things up after decades of using the Royal Oak as a crutch, and how original they have been while maintaining their DNA. I find that truly exemplary! :)

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 13, 2019 1:14 am 
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I modified the title of this thread to include all new SIHH releases, I did not want to over load the forum more than I already am.


A drastically reduced and accessible UN Freak has been released:
https://www.******.com/articles/ulyss ... ntroducing

Now that's very surprising! And certainly welcome news! The cheaper UN is also quite attractive, actually I think it looks more usable than the previous models (less freaky) which is all good news!

The case is very attractive, seems to my eye like they are heavily influenced by JLC? Might be just the pictures. Regardless, an attractive watch that is actualy a tourbillon, has several key advances including the silicon balance wheel that UN Freaks are famed for. I have read about them briefly but it went over my head. Now that this watch is a possibility further reading is warranted!

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 13, 2019 1:28 am 
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I have captured the below screenshot, this clip conveys the essence of the new AP collection better than the renderings. There is just something about the overall design, I get a sense of a very modern, extremely high quality watch with a simple vintage inspiration. Its quite hard to describe, but again I feel like the JLC Polaris gave AP the idea on where to start. Maybe I just like JLC!


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 13, 2019 6:43 am 
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Altair wrote:
Its not about placement as a choice but the way a movement is designed. There are considerations that relate to thickness and complexity that would make the placement of the date wheel mechanism more convenient for the watchmakers at 4:30 or alternatively (but never done as far as I know) 7:30.

Not every brand can do what JLC or Lange do and simply come out with a brand new movement every time while maintaining or even reducing size. Patek also mostly. But that's it, not even VC or AP have that level of watchmaking prowess.

We have to remember that these considerations present watchmakers with difficult choices, replacing the date wheel mechanism while maintaining other criteria could mean the redesign of the whole movement, that R&D and overly complex mechanism could increase prices substantially.

I agree this may definitely be the case for movements with numerous (and perhaps modular) complications, but I agree with Nate that on a 3 hander the date wheel is exposed all the way round on the top of the movement, so the aperture can be placed pretty much anywhere on the dial. The same is also broadly true for integrated chronograph movements, although in the case of a 3-6-9 configuration, watchmakers are essentially faced with the choice of either a 4:30 position or hidden within the subdial at 6 (or possibly 3 or 9 although it's never done), which obviously obscures/replaces one of the markings on that subdial. For me that's an EASY trade-off - a minuscule drop in functionality for a massive improvement in aesthetics.

Failing the 6 option, then most of the time I'd rather 3-6-9 chronos didn't have a date at all.

Last point on this topic (then I'll shut up! :wink: ) but I also wish that if the 4:30 is the only option watchmakers will consider, then please look into orientating the font on the datewheel so it's upright and not slanted. B&R do it, so do Sinn, and so do a number of micros. In fact Breitling did it a few times in the past (for example the 7806 Navitimer).

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 13, 2019 6:44 am 
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By the way, I just want to say that's great to have some "spirited" (yet respectful) discussion on here again! :thumbsup:

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 13, 2019 6:49 am 
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The new Freak looks good and probably much more usable on a daily basis, but it's almost a bit of a shame it's been so "sanitised". I used to like the fact that the original didn't even have a crown!

I like the sound of Carbonium too!

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 13, 2019 7:01 am 
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Driver8 wrote:
The new Freak looks good and probably much more usable on a daily basis, but it's almost a bit of a shame it's been so "sanitised". I used to like the fact that the original didn't even have a crown!

I like the sound of Carbonium too!


I have long been a fan of Oechslin and the Freak. Need to study the news about the new release, but am very intrigued.

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 13, 2019 7:02 am 
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Thats an interesting move to make the freak more accessible. I'm some regards it takes a little away from the extreme unique aspect of it, but I think it's a cool watch so the more accessible the better.

I like how AP is using their new in house movement in the Royal Oak 15500 as well. I like the new movement and hope it makes its way into other AP watches.

And I really love that AP is offering a 38mm chrono now. For those who haven't tried on a royal oak, they wear huge for their dimensions because of the way the integrated bracelet does not have the ability to slope straight down from the lugs. I love the 41mm chrono but it was too big... I'm interested in the 38mm chrono but only if it had the new 11.59 chrono movement with a display back. Maybe in a couple years they will come out with my perfect version.

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 13, 2019 9:34 am 
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natesen wrote:
I like how AP is using their new in house movement in the Royal Oak 15500 as well. I like the new movement and hope it makes its way into other AP watches.

Agreed. I like all the changes to the 15500 except for the lack of any text in the lower half of the dial. If they'd have kept the "Automatic" of the 15400 it'd have been perfect.

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 13, 2019 10:06 am 
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Driver8 wrote:
The new Freak looks good and probably much more usable on a daily basis, but it's almost a bit of a shame it's been so "sanitised". I used to like the fact that the original didn't even have a crown!

I like the sound of Carbonium too!


From a business standpoint UN are obviousely learning from Cartiers successfull move with the civilian skeleton Santos. My original Santos Skeleton was 120k+. the new one can be had for around 25 and is a far more usable watch. They produce very few of them but created unbelievable buzz, as people go in and try to get one, they might pick up another Cartier to scratch the itch, Santos or not. UN might do the same, produce a small quantity and sell at or below cost, but generate substantial sales and brand recognitio outside the Russian oligarch crowd.


I have not looked into the new movements yet as stated in my earlier post, but I doubt they would choose an angled aproach to date display unless it was a balance against other considerations, unless they thought it was a vintage look and they, like me, dont particularly mind the 4:30 date.

I will have to do some research to educate myself, interesting subject indeed! Right now I am exchausted after a horendousely long day at the office, now I shall go take a shower, sit down with a cigar after choosing a suitable watch to accompany my reading, I shall also, every so often, imagine how the lot of you inevitabely come to your senses and realize I was right all along :nana:

Best wishes to you all, I do hope this SIHH brings you watches you are truely passionate about and the good fortune to aquire them!

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 13, 2019 10:39 am 
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https://www.******.com/articles/jaege ... ntroducing

oh


my


LORD!

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 13, 2019 10:47 am 
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That JLC is my ultimate win the biggest lottery in the world watch. That is just an absolute incredible piece!! Gryotourbillon, perpetual, minute repeater in a wearable case size. Has to be one of the best watches ever created. Period.

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