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what, how, ... Kurfürst - Sicura ?
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Author:  Garin_van_Lohengrin [ Tue Nov 11, 2014 12:54 am ]
Post subject:  what, how, ... Kurfürst - Sicura ?
Dears,

As a heritage of my great-uncle I got a Kurfürst 17 Jewels automatic 9241 watch. I did not think it had/has any particular value, until I went looking for it on the net for similar watches.

I can´t find it. For some reason I found it had something to do with Valjoux, and then I stumbled on the below pictures which are from a Sicura 9241. http://www.ebay.com/itm/SICURA-Breitling-17-Jewels-Automatic-day-date-FULL-LEVER-watch-SWISS-made-/161467010223
(picture of my watch attached to this post)
The back of it is exactly the same as mine.
The front only differs in the color of the dial and the location of the text. The little crown, lettering, placement of day/date is exactly the same. Even at the bottom the "T Swiss Made T" and the Roman numerals.

Mine says where it says Sicura etc.; "Kurfürst"
and the dial is black with white lettering.
Where it says Full Lever automatic, mine says 17 Jewels Automatic.

I read Sicura bought the rights of Breitling cca end of the seventees, so I was wondering if you could help me find out more about why I see this Kurfürst pop up only as Sicura ?
I am very confused. Since the watch is not a Sicura and surely not a Breitling, how come it is so similar. Is it coincidence? Is it a cheap copy? Is it a predecessor of Sicura ? Did someone buy the leftovers of Sicura and continued the lines after Sicura bought the rights on Breitling? Why is the Crown reapearing on Sicura watches ? etc .. etc... Many questions, no answers.

One thing I know for sure; the Crown stands for the Kurfürst, because "Kurfürst" is German that stands for "electoral King".
Kings have crowns. Hence the logo.
Sicura than again is Italian for "Security" I don´t see any link with a crown there.

Many thanks in advance,

Kind regards,

PS. I´m not so much interested in pricing, rather than the story. I´m assuming it is a lower mid-range vintage.
Author:  WatchFred [ Tue Nov 11, 2014 1:09 am ]
Post subject:  Re: what, how, ... Kurfürst - Sicura ?
clearly a Sicura, rebranded "Kurfürst", most probably for the mail order company.

here are the potential trademark owners, very much doubt it has anything to do w/ Haller.

Kurfürst would be an electoral prince, btw.

Image
Author:  P51 [ Tue Nov 11, 2014 2:25 am ]
Post subject:  Re: what, how, ... Kurfürst - Sicura ?
Many watches in the same mould as this. Difor, Birko. Mortima, Primera. Sorna, Tegrov. Mostly badge engineered but sometimes a surprise or two.
Author:  Garin_van_Lohengrin [ Tue Nov 11, 2014 4:14 am ]
Post subject:  Re: what, how, ... Kurfürst - Sicura ?
Thank you very much for the clear answer. This is already very great. My great-Uncle died in 1991, so I´m quite happy to finally be able to place the watch. The rebadging would idd. explain why I couldn´t find anything about it.

Do you mean with "a surprise or two" it may happen that during the rebranding they would not necesarily care so much about what they did with it, or just as to the fact one can´t easily place the watches afterwards ?

Would you also know from when till when they were made ?
Would it be worth to have it revised, what would you spend max. on having it revised ? (in any case I´m pretty sure I will have it revised. It´s no use to keep it otherwise).

Like I mentioned I have many questions :)

It´s indeed an electoral prince. :) right is right.
Author:  WatchFred [ Tue Nov 11, 2014 4:26 am ]
Post subject:  Re: what, how, ... Kurfürst - Sicura ?
I'll let P51 explain his surprises, no idea what he meant, frankly; no surprises to be expected here.
mid- to low end mass produced private label piece.

no exact dates, most probably 1970s, watch was apparently sold to France or Switzerland.

service shouldn't be more than €150, well above current market value for the watch, but that is of secondary importance considering the emotional attachment.
Author:  Garin_van_Lohengrin [ Tue Nov 11, 2014 10:33 am ]
Post subject:  Re: what, how, ... Kurfürst - Sicura ?
Thank you WatchFred and P51. I didn´t quite dare to hope I´d get all my questions answered that fast, but I did. This seems idd. to be the place to be.
Next friday I´m going to the Buštěhrad market in Prague, and I´ll be watching some watches. :) Who knows I´ll find another rebadged twin of this hidden Sicura. It may come in handy during the revision.
Once again big thank you.
Author:  P51 [ Tue Nov 11, 2014 5:05 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: what, how, ... Kurfürst - Sicura ?
Garin, what I meant by surprises is dependent on the point of view you take when reviewing these types of pieces. Different colours on chapter rings to either match the dial or perhaps different bezel complications.

In one case I had exactly the same pieces with two different method of arming the crystal to the watch case. Something very hard to see until you disassemble and only at that point do you realise the similarity but different approach.

Obviously these do not necessarily apply to your particular watch . I just get fascinated by the thinking that goes into these low cost time pieces and how they get manufactured.

In another case I removed the back of 2 similar models from 2 different brands. You would expect to see the same or similar movement, but in this case I noted a completely different calibre. Never been opened before and completely clean. Not necessarily a surprise for the worse, just a surprise.

Given the attachment you have to your watch, it would be good to continue your research. Might even throw up a surprise or two!
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