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PostPosted: Thu Oct 14, 2010 10:03 am 
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** Firstly, apologies for the TERRIBLE quality of the pictures! I only have an iPhone, and the light was failing aswell, so all I can do is say sorry! :oops: **

As many of you may know (if you've read a few of my posts), I'm changing my collection over to pieces that all have in-house movements, but I still recognise that I like to have at least one watch that could be considered a "beater". Now in actual fact I never used any of my watches as true beaters, as I never wear a watch when doing things like playing sport, down the gym or doing DIY. My interpretation of a beater is a watch that I can just throw on at any time without really having to think twice about it being on my arm. With this in mind, I need something that can work equally well with a suit or a pair of jeans as it may be worn in any situation. Finding something that matches this criteria as well as being well-made, mechanical (definitely not quartz), and not costing the earth (as that would kind of defeat the object!) isn't as easy as it sounds.

Anyway with this in mind, I've been looking for the "perfect" 'wear and forget' watch for some time....... and I'm pretty sure that with the Lum Tec M25 I think I might just've found it. This is the M25 -

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Lum Tec have been around for a few years now, and have a somewhat eclectic and almost "mix and match" approach to watchmaking. All the watches are designed and put together in the States, but the parts come from all over the world and arrive at various stages of finishing. I believe that some parts are fully finished abroad, while others are finished in the States. While I'm sure there may be an element of "selecting the best components from around the world" involved, I think it's more likely to do with cost rather than necessarily selecting the best-of-the-best. For example, in the past they've used a lot of Miyota and Seiko movements including a number of quartz movements, and have rarely used the better Swiss (i.e. ETA) engines. Previously this has meant that whenever I've seriously looked at them, something has always put me off just enough to stop me from taking the plunge. For example, quite recently I was looking at an M7 which looks very similar to the M25 I've just bought, but a few things put me off - the movement was the Seiko SII NH25A11J auto instead of an ETA, and the case wasn't polished between the lugs which gave it a slightly unfinished look if worn on a strap. Plus (I believe) the crown was non-screwlocked.

However, all that has changed with the M25 (and it's brothers, the M23 and M24). All of these latest models are running the venerable workhorse ETA 2824-2 movement instead of something of Japanese descent : already a big plus point in my book. :thumbsup: There's no information on the grade (which usually indicates Standard grade), but Lum Tec adjust it to 5 positions and so far mine is keeping pretty darn good time.

However, the thing that is the really standout out feature of this watch is the case. Visually you don't have to be the world's biggest WIS to see that it takes a few design cues from our Italian friends in Firenza. However, it's different enough to stand on it's own two feet in designs terms IMO, and has a reasonably unique look. But the really different thing about this watch case is what it's made of...... because it's not made of steel. It's made from Tungsten Carbide.

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For those of you who slept through your chemistry lessons, tungsten is one of the densist elements on the planet. It's more than 70% more dense than lead in fact, which explains why it is used for X-Ray targets and shielding in the nuclear industry. In it's pure form it is (apparently) reasonably easy to work with (apart from having the ridiculously high melting point of 3422 degrees centigrade, compared 316L steel at around 1400 degrees), but if you combine it with one or more additional elements, it's properties can be changed considerably. In this case, tungsten has been combined with carbon to create tungsten carbide, which while still being as dense and heavy as pure tungsten (well, near as damnit anyway!) and still with the seriously high melting point of 2870 degrees C, it's incredibly hard and therefore exceptionally scratch resistant. In actual fact it's comparable in hardness to Sapphire crystal! :shock: The upshot of this is that it's nigh-on impossible to scratch other than with a diamond and a couple of other extremely hard compounds like silicon carbide. As a result tungsten carbide is used for making high speed drill bits for drilling through other metals such as stainless steel, and it's also used by the military for both armour plating and also armour-piercing shells where depleted uranium is not a "politically viable" option :? . In the real world (i.e. the watch world!) it all means that it is essentially scratch proof and will therefore hold a mirror shine for years. It's for this reason I've been hoping for years that Breitling might consider making something from tungsten themselves.......

OK, that's quite enough metallurgy 101 there! :)

The case is absolutely beautifully finished, being fully polished (even between the lugs now :thumbsup:), and the cases edges are both crisp and yet smooth to the touch. It's a lovely thing to see, and to hold. The underside however is slightly less well finished, as is left with a simple brushed finish that probably hasn't been touched too much since it was stamped. Additionally the edges on the underside are a little too sharp, which while it doesn't dig in or irriate my wrist at all, it does show a little less attention to detail than some of the more expensives brands would do. I guess most of this is down to cost as I should imagine that tungsten carbide is not the easiest thing in the world to polish given it's extreme hardness, and I guess diamond polishing wheels are pretty expensive. Additionally this watch is so good in so many areas that I keep forgetting this watch is priced in the hundreds, not thousands of pounds! The caseback itself is nicely engraved with all the necessary details, including the WR rating (100m), and the LE number as these babies are limited to just 175 worldwide! :thumbsup: It's also worth noting that this watch is HEAVY! On the standard leather strap it tips the scales at 160g, so it's really something of a monster!

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The case blanks are apparently made in Hong Kong by a small manufacturer who specialises in Tungsten fabrications : in fact, that's all they do! The blanks are then shipped to Switzerland where they are finished and diamond polished before being shipped to the States for final assembly. The crown is screwed locked, and a very good size that is very easy to grip. I think the crown is made from steel 'cause if you look closely it's a fractionally different tone to the case. Tungsten is a little darker and has a deeper shine than steel, although if you weren't specifically looking for it you wouldn't notice. Again I suspect this is due to the hardness of tungsten when trying to machine fiune detail in the same way that very few manufacturers who make zirconium oxide (i.e. ceramic) watches rarely undertake any really fine detail work in the material. For example, the ceramic IWC Top Gun models have titanium pushpieces and crown. (Panerai are the obvious exception with the 317, etc, but then they charge for it too! :lol: )

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The dial is extremely legible and benefits from Lum Tec's special 8 layers of lume application. It IS very bright indeed, but I still think that Seiko's Lumibrite is possibily fractionally brighter. But as I've said before I'm not a massive lume-fiend so I'm not bothered either way. The M25 is certainly one of the brightest I've come across which is fine by me. The dial colour is actually a dark grey instead of black, and with the sunray effect it looks stunning IMO. if I'm being really picky I'd quite like the second hand to extend a couple more mm so that it actually touches teh second track on the outside edge of the dial, but that's a VERY minor point.

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Something that may divide opinion is the date window at 4.30. Some people like it at that position, and some don't. I don't mind it myself, but I'm very pleased I requested the black date wheel specifically. It's worth noting that dispite the promo pictures all showing a black date wheel, these watches don't necessarily come with a black date wheel as standard! So if you want one, make sure you ask for it specially.

The crystal is completely flat sapphire that has been double AR coated. This is another thing that seems to divide opinion on Lum Tec watches, and that is the fact that the AR coating (while being totally clear from most angles) can appear VERY purple at other angles. I don't mind it all - in fact it even gives a little more visual interest - but I know some people get very hot under the collar about it. I certainly wouldn't want all my watches to be like that, but on the M25 it seems to suit it somehow. Here is a shot showing it appearing clear......

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And now with a slight change of angle.......

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As I said above, the overall design certainly owes a bit to Panerai, which extends to both the case size (44mm), and the lug width (24mm). The good news is that this means that all the millions of panerai straps out there will fit the M25..... which is just as well as the standard straps are something of a mixed bag.

Believe it or not, the Lum Tec M25 comes with 3 straps as standard, all with their own spring bars and buckles, which is a very nice touch and shwo superb value for money on this watch. The standard strap is a flat, black calf leather strap with a "Pre-V" style Lum Tec signed buckle. It's a nice thick strap with even stitching, but it's already starting to crack on the edges after just a couple of days wear, and just doesn't scream of the highest quality. It's OK, but not great.

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The second strap is a Lum Tec branded rubber strap, again with it's own Pre-V style buckle. This strap seems quite hard and also quite thin, so personally I won't be putting this anywhere near my M25. It's a nice touch to have the strap options, but personally I'd have preferred the cash to go into a better leather strap and do away with the rubber altogether.

The third strap is way more interesting as it is actually a full tungsten carbide bracelet! Dispite being nice and wide (i.e. 24mm at lugs, 22mm at clasp) it is also very slimline which seems to suit the bracelet design very nicely. It will also mean that it will slip nicely under a work shirt sleeve. However, dispite the relative thinness, it is still extremely heavy! The bracelet alone tips the scales at almost 160g, so on the watch head the whole thing would weigh in at around 320g. :shock: I thought I was going to hate the bracelet, but I actually really like it in the flesh. However (and this is a real shame) the clasp seriously lets it's down. The clasp is made of steel (again due to the fact that Tungsten carbide is very tough to work with on an intricate level), but it looks like it's come off those really cheap deployants you can buy on the Bay for a couple of pounds. If only it was of a more substantial design it'd be a superb bracelet. The only other thing that the bracelet lacks is any kind of fine adjustment, which is another major oversight in my book. These points are a real pity because so much about the strap/bracelet options are done extremely well, but they are let down just a little at the very end.

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With these "strapping issues" in mind I decided to pick up a pattern Panerai deployant (i.e. an unbranded but exact copy of Panerai's design) and hunted down a decent deployant-compatible aftermarket Panerai strap. I'm still waiting on the strap to be delivered but as soon as it is and fitted to my watch I'll post up some more pics. Hopefully it'll look as good as I hope!

The overall presentation pack from Lum Tec is superb too, with a highly-lacquered box with two separate compartments inside of the spare straps. Also included is a basic manual and a certificate of authenticity. All in all it's a very nice package indeed, especially at the pre-order price I got it all for - around £500 delivered to my door, which IMO is truly fantastic value for money given what an awesome watch this is.

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Lastly I just want to say what an absolute pleasure it was dealing with Lum Tec's European distributor - TopTime. Peter at TopTime was incredibly helpful all the way, always replied to emails very quickly, and went to some lengths to secure a model with black date wheel for me dispite me asking for it quite late in the day. He also ensured it was delivered in super quick time. Totally superb all round.

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All in all, these latest M tungsten models are absolutely fantastic IMO. There is the M23 has a blue dial and orange lume, the M24 has a carbon fibre dial (which I always find a little busy), and this M25 with the grey sunray dial. Whatever you choose you won't be disappointed. I really can't recommend them enough!

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 14, 2010 10:46 am 
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Great review and a very nice watch. My wedding ring is Tungsten Carbide and I was telling a fellow forum member recently that I'd like a tungsten watch. VERY COOL. And yes...it does have some design similarities to Pam which I like very much.

My experience with my tungsten ring is that it does not scratch and I'd be curious to see how well your watch holds up to daily wear...i'd bet it would look just as new in a year as it does today.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 14, 2010 10:50 am 
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mfserge wrote:
Great review and a very nice watch. My wedding ring is Tungsten Carbide and I was telling a fellow forum member recently that I'd like a tungsten watch. VERY COOL. And yes...it does have some design similarities to Pam which I like very much.

My experience with my tungsten ring is that it does not scratch and I'd be curious to see how well your watch holds up to daily wear...i'd bet it would look just as new in a year as it does today.

Cheers Serge, I appreciate it!

I've just checked and as it's no longer on pre-order the retail has gone up to $995 USD. For me, it was cheaper to buy from the European distributor, and I've had it on order for a while so I got it at the pre-order price which worked out at around £500 GBP.


Just as an aside, I've been reading up a bit more on tungsten and it's ability to withstand high temperatures is amazing. As I said above tungsten melts at 3422 degrees C, while 316L steel melts at around 1400 degrees C. In fact steel boils at "only" 2900 degrees C, so steel is boiling a good 500 degrees before tungsten even melts! Tungsten boils at almost 6000 degrees C! :shock: I love those kind of random and pointless facts! :lol: :oops:

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 14, 2010 11:01 am 
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Well if you're ever on the sun you won't have to worry about your watch melting!! :poke: I'm a big fan of Tungsten Carbide for Jewelry because of it's scratch resistance and I'm really glad you posted this. I'm on their website right now trying to decide if I should go for it!! I just saw some for-sale photos on another forum and the watch looks really really great....too bad it already sold.

Congrats on a nice pick up.


Driver8 wrote:
mfserge wrote:
Great review and a very nice watch. My wedding ring is Tungsten Carbide and I was telling a fellow forum member recently that I'd like a tungsten watch. VERY COOL. And yes...it does have some design similarities to Pam which I like very much.

My experience with my tungsten ring is that it does not scratch and I'd be curious to see how well your watch holds up to daily wear...i'd bet it would look just as new in a year as it does today.

Cheers Serge, I appreciate it!

I've just checked and as it's no longer on pre-order the retail has gone up to $995 USD. For me, it was cheaper to buy from the European distributor, and I've had it on order for a while so I got it at the pre-order price which worked out at around £500 GBP.


Just as an aside, I've been reading up a bit more on tungsten and it's ability to withstand high temperatures is amazing. As I said above tungsten melts at 3422 degrees C, while 316L steel melts at around 1400 degrees C. In fact steel boils at "only" 2900 degrees C, so steel is boiling a good 500 degrees before tungsten even melts! Tungsten boils at almost 6000 degrees C! :shock: I love those kind of random and pointless facts! :lol: :oops:

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 14, 2010 11:06 am 
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Nice pickup Driver8.

Tungsten is a very cool metal - very stable as well as everything else mentioned so a logical material for watch cases - and that 3,420C is higher than any other metal's melting point.

Tungsten carbide is pretty close to corundum and diamond in terms of hardness so very resistant to just about anything


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 14, 2010 11:19 am 
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Thanks a lot guys, I'm very pleased with it.

Here's a lume shot for you. Now you need to bear in mind this is taken with an iPhone, which is a notoriously bad camera at the best of times. In the dark it's complete junk, and the only other watch that the iPhone can even pick up at all in the dark was my Doxa 600T-Graph, so this shows that the lume is pretty damn good -

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It's much MUCH better in person.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 14, 2010 11:43 am 
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I even see a little Bell&Ross in the dial....the hands and the 12, 3, 6, 9. If a PAM 359 hooked up with a BR02 and had a child this is what it would look like....and it's awesome!

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 14, 2010 12:47 pm 
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Congrats D8! I had a good look at those bad boys around a year ago, the same as you looking for a bit of a beater, great watches for the money IMO. Great review!

Cheers

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 15, 2010 2:02 am 
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Thank You for a very nicely thought out, informative and in-depth review Mr Driver.

I liked the metallurgy lesson too.

£500 seems like an absolute bargain to me. They have used design elements from a mixture of brands but it doesn't look cluttered or over-designed in any way. Nicely conceived.

I hope it gives you the service you expect from it.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 15, 2010 4:53 am 
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@Ricardo - thanks a lot! Not quite up there with the quality of your reviews mind...... especially on the photo front! :lol:

mfserge wrote:
I just saw some for-sale photos on another forum and the watch looks really really great....too bad it already sold.

@Sergio - like I said above, if you're looking at used models (like the M7) just make sure you're aware that it won't have an ETA movement inside. It's only the current M23, 24 and 25 models that use the ETA 2824. All the older ones use Japanese SII movements instead.

The forthcoming manual wind tungsten models look good too, but they're more expensive again, and personally I'd prefer the auto anyway.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 15, 2010 5:18 am 
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Driver8 wrote:
@Sergio - like I said above, if you're looking at used models (like the M7) just make sure you're aware that it won't have an ETA movement inside. It's only the current M23, 24 and 25 models that use the ETA 2824. All the older ones use Japanese SII movements instead.

The forthcoming manual wind tungsten models look good too, but they're more expensive again, and personally I'd prefer the auto anyway.


I did notice on their website that some of their movements are Japanese movements. I took a hard look at their upcoming M27 GMT which uses an ETA movement as well.....but in the end it was the grey sunray dial on the M25 that sealed the deal for me. They even emailed me asking what color date wheel I wanted. I cannot wait to get it.

How do you plan on wearing it mostly? I think I will put on the bracelet because I really want to test out the Tungsten Carbide scratch resistance. When I got married my wife got me a white gold ring and within a month it was full of scratches...a buddy turned me on to Tungsten Carbide so I bought a TC ring that looked exactly like my wedding ring and now 3 years later it still looks brand spankin new with zero scratches.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 15, 2010 6:22 am 
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I think I'll probably mostly wear it on the new deployant strap I've ordered. It's quite a unique leather I've found, so provided it looks good(!), I'll probably be keeping it on that. If it looks cack, I might have to revise my choice a little! :lol:

The bracelet does look pretty good, but like I said above, the clasp doesn't strike me as that great. If I could find a way of replacing it for a more hardy looking clasp then I'd be a lot more tempted to try wearing it on the bracelet. Something like a copy of the Zenith bracelet deployant would be ideal. Of course, a lot will depend on whether I can get a decent fit on the bracelet as it lacks any fine adjustment. If I'm lucky and I get a good fit just by removing links, then I will definitely give it a go.

One thing I really like about the standard leather strap is that you can remove it with absolutely no tools at all! The spring bar has a little raised bit that sticks out through a hole in the leather on the underside of the strap, and this allows you to depress the spring bar and remove the strap with just your fingernail. It's such a simple idea and it makes removing and replacing a strap an absolute doddle. It also basically completely removes the possibility of scratching the lugs (although on this watch that's probably unlikely anyway!).

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 15, 2010 6:27 am 
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Thanks for the great review Driver. I've been looking for a good beater watch and was pretty settled on the Sinn U1, but now that I've seen this I might wait for the M27 GMT, I like GMT watches and don't have one yet. Thanks again.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 15, 2010 6:54 am 
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Great review...

...I too am VERY interested in this watch!

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 15, 2010 7:52 am 
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I enjoyed the review D8, particularly on a watch I didn't know a lot about. Thanks for sharing and congratulations on the acquisition. It seems a very reasonable price for the quality and your passion for the piece is obvious.

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