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PostPosted: Wed Aug 21, 2013 6:33 am 
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WatchFred wrote:
what production year is this from, assuming this would not covered under the NDA ?


I am pretty sure cal_11 wont mind me sharing this , serial 65xxxx which dates it to 1953 , very close to the 652200 pictured here

http://www.ebay.de/itm/BREITLING-Datora ... 1145328724?

maybe cal_11 will share with us the full serial but thats up to him


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 21, 2013 6:41 am 
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p.s.
before the worlds best known Breitling expert decides its not worth being exposed (again) and removes the photo shopped picture with the altered reference number , here's both of them again side by side

as you can see originally it had the 94-28 reference but now, as if magic is involved, the same watch picture has reference 95-28 and is used to provide provenance for a watch claiming it to be 'the most iconic Breitling' he's ever seen


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 21, 2013 6:43 am 
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well, as he owns 80% of all Breitlings ever produced, he might have that reference piece for us ?

here are two examples from the same period; 1952 Chronomat 2508, 1955 Unitime 1-260

Image

Image

never understood my somebody would keep the serial number of his vintage Breitling secret, btw.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 21, 2013 7:01 am 
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WatchFred wrote:
well, as he owns 80% of all Breitlings ever produced, he might have that reference piece for us ?


You got that right Fred, should have a dozen or more.
I posted this on another thread but it refers to this watch.
There are three major reasons this watch has been the target of fakers over several years. One being the price they command. Rarity is first on the faker hit parade. Rare means more money which in turn is usually the first ones faked. Second is the time period of the watches. Movements were not signed often or at all during this time so that is one box they can easily mark off as not to worry too much about. Just put in the RIGHT movement and someone can manipulate the rest easily. But third is the scary one. The dial. Do this one time. Google: Vintage moonphase watch. You will see just how many manufactures used the same dial, to the "T". Many, many no named brands out there just waiting to become the fakers choice. And I will bet one of those guys will read this too and think, "Correct".

Trust me, they are on this and all the other watch sites trying to figure out what they and others did wrong to better their work.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 21, 2013 7:15 am 
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Don't understand that hiding serial number thing myself. Afraid someone is going to steal your serial number for their watch? Paranoia will destroy ya. Serial numbers are very hard to fake well. The factory stamped them into the case back, unless you have that type of machine it is easily detectable. Even then these guys are smart, it is not cost effective unless they are pumping out lots of watches.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 21, 2013 9:15 am 
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Huuuh, what's going on here?

I don't like to see the reference numbers oy my watches in any forum on the internet. For my person I can say, if anybody has this wish, I will respect this. It's not 40 numbers away, it 41 away. I've learned my lesson.

I have nothing to hide and I'm not Mr. März, even I come from Germany :bow: The watchmaker, which sold it to me, said, that the watch was overhauled by Breitling some years ago. I'm sure, there was changed the glas and the hands and the case was pulished. If they also changed the dial, it must be a NOS-dial, because I don't think, that Bretling has created a new dial especially for this watch (and mabye the one on eBay)... I personally would not send a vintage watch to Breitling.

So here is the caseback inside:
Image

I don't know, why there are 3 rows with numbers, but it's not the first time with Breitling, that I'm wondering about such things. Even for the known serial number tables...

Maybe the 95-28 has a different ref because of the goldcover (Goldhaube in German). The rest seems to be the same.

cal_11


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 21, 2013 9:20 am 
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cal_11 wrote:
Huuuh, what's going on here?

I don't like to see the reference numbers oy my watches in any forum on the internet. For my person I can say, if anybody has this wish, I will respect this. It's not 40 numbers away, it 41 away. I've learned my lesson.
cal_11


sorry, I do not understand what you are referring to, could you please clarify ?


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 21, 2013 10:06 am 
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cal_11 wrote:
Huuuh, what's going on here?


I am not quite sure what you mean, we're discussing watches and I thought (hoped) I gave quite an unbiased opinion of your watch , If that is not what was expected I appologize

cal_11 wrote:
I've learned my lesson.


I am not quite sure what you mean ?

cal_11 wrote:
the watch was overhauled by Breitling some years ago. I'm sure, there was changed the glas and the hands and the case was pulished. If they also changed the dial, it must be a NOS-dial, because I don't think, that Bretling has created a new dial especially for this watch (and mabye the one on eBay)... I personally would not send a vintage watch to Breitling.


This raises even more questions as Breitling has not had any parts for these pre 1979 watches since they liquidated in 1979/1980

Do you know when it was sent to Breitling ? is there any paperwork from what Breitling did ? , an invoice or invoice number that can be verified with them ?


cal_11 wrote:
Maybe the 95-28 has a different ref because of the goldcover (Goldhaube in German). The rest seems to be the same.

cal_11


please understand that I am not trying to 'burn' your watch, I am genuinely interested and want to learn more

thanks
Rene

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 21, 2013 10:35 am 
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WatchFred wrote:
cal_11 wrote:
Huuuh, what's going on here?

I don't like to see the reference numbers oy my watches in any forum on the internet. For my person I can say, if anybody has this wish, I will respect this. It's not 40 numbers away, it 41 away. I've learned my lesson.
cal_11


sorry, I do not understand what you are referring to, could you please clarify ?


Sorry, my mistake. I meant, I don't like to see the serialnumber (not referencenumer) of my watches in the internet, therefore I've posted the picture to Dracha via PM only. Dracha has written "...that is only 40 pieces removed from cal_11's watch". So it's nearly clear, which serialnumber my watch has. I'm not ok with that.

Another guy is writing about paranoia...


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 21, 2013 10:43 am 
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:idontgetit: :shock:


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 21, 2013 10:46 am 
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Quote:
I am not quite sure what you mean, we're discussing watches and I thought (hoped) I gave quite an unbiased opinion of your watch , If that is not what was expected I appologize


It's not about your opinion, I'm interested in more informations about my watch. I'm only disappointed about the serialnumber thing. But it's OK now and I accept your apology.

Quote:
This raises even more questions as Breitling has not had any parts for these pre 1979 watches since they liquidated in 1979/1980


I've written, If the dial was changed - I don't know if it was changed. I think, hands and glas were not a big problem for Breitling - if these parts were changed!

The hands are a little different in comapre to the one in the catalog, espacially the date-hand.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 21, 2013 10:55 am 
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So you are saying that if let's say my watch serial number is 51250 and yours is 51291, this bothers you? Why? You know it is possible. Big deal!


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 21, 2013 12:02 pm 
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Thanks for sharing your thinking process Rene, very helpful to beginners like myself to see things teased out.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 21, 2013 12:12 pm 
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This thread is exactly the reason I won't buy any of these watches. Too many unknowns. I'm not 100% sure what's original and, apparently, neither is anyone else.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 22, 2013 2:08 am 
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I've checked some things now, here is my current result:

Quote:
-: Why the 17 jewel movement and not 21 or 25 when other bidynator movements used by Breitling were 21 jewels during this period (Unitime)

It seems, that also most of the other brands have used the Felsa 693 movement with 17 Jewels for their Datoras (and yes, it has only 17 jewels).
Quote:
-: Why no BOW when other watches with bidynator (Unitime) had this

Some watches had no export code. There is also no BOW or WOG on my 3-hands-Navitimer Automatic with Felsa-movement.
Quote:
-: Why no 'breitling watch corp swiss' on the inside of the caseback where other watches with bidynator had this ?

Same thing, also with the 3-hands-Navitimer Automatic with Felsa-movement
Quote:
-: Why is there an undocumented 95-28 around (see post to auction from OP) that is only 40 pieces removed from cal_11's watch (according to serial number from both watches) that looks exactly the same but with a different ref number ? did Breitling suddenly during the middle of manufacturing and mid year decide it was time for a change ?

As I've written above: The 95-28 of the thread starter has a gold-cover.

I have currently no explanation for the third row. Maybe Breitling had a sub-manufacurer for these kind of watches? Maybe this is a code of this manufacturer? This could be a explanation why this code is identical to the 95-28.

cal_11


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