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PostPosted: Sat Feb 20, 2010 12:29 pm 
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Chris K wrote:
Roffensian wrote:
Are you suggesting that any 806 without incabloc is a frankenwatch?


Yes.

Regards,
Chris


Soooo...are they cases mis-stamped by a drunk out of chronological sequence or Frankens? The two would seem to be mutually exclusive... :?
T.


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 20, 2010 4:14 pm 
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tomvox1 wrote:
Chris K wrote:
Roffensian wrote:
Are you suggesting that any 806 without incabloc is a frankenwatch?


Yes.

Regards,
Chris


Soooo...are they cases mis-stamped by a drunk out of chronological sequence or Frankens? The two would seem to be mutually exclusive... :?
T.


I'm sorry, this whole thing is starting to get silly.

The mistake about serial numbers is possible, we don't all agree with it, but it's possible.

The idea that all of these watches (and largely only these watches) are frankenwatches with the only evidence being a non incabloc movements (because for the watches that look 'right' the bridges are definitely legitimate) stretches credibility a long way beyond breaking point.


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 20, 2010 5:26 pm 
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Roffensian wrote:
I'm sorry, this whole thing is starting to get silly.

The mistake about serial numbers is possible, we don't all agree with it, but it's possible.

The idea that all of these watches (and largely only these watches) are frankenwatches with the only evidence being a non incabloc movements (because for the watches that look 'right' the bridges are definitely legitimate) stretches credibility a long way beyond breaking point.


Watches? Plural? About which amount are we talking here?
How many 'Breitling Navitimers' of 1959 (+ later) without Incabloc have actually surfaced?

Regards,
Chris


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 20, 2010 5:53 pm 
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tomvox1 wrote:
Chris K wrote:

"INCABLOC": The Breitling vintage market always has been 'blessed' with more Frankenstein watches then any other brand. If you are missing an Incabloc shock protection in a watch you are sure that it should have one, then you better get accustomed to the idea, that this particular watch is a Frankenstein watch.

Regards,
Chris

Wrong answer...
Try again. :wink:
T.




Is it possible to get a closeup pic of the regulator?


Regards,
Chris


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 21, 2010 11:43 am 
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Chris K wrote:
Is it possible to get a closeup pic of the regulator?
Regards,
Chris


New and improved movement shots:

Image

Image

Maybe some other type of shock absorption system but does not look like Incabloc to me:

Image
(Image from breitlingmuseum)
Best,
T.


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 21, 2010 12:26 pm 
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I told you in another thread before, its not only the missing of incabloc what is different of the 1953 navitimers to the early 1960's Navitimers, but you didnt care.

Look on the right site of the bridge: all early 1960's Navitimer have there a scripture "seventeen 17 jewels unadjusted"

but all the 1953 Navitimer have it not.

For me there is no any doubt, that the 1953 Navitimers are the first of all. Every other theoriy is only fantasy in a glass of beer.


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 21, 2010 1:01 pm 
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breitlingmuseum wrote:
I told you in another thread before, its not only the missing of incabloc what is different of the 1953 navitimers to the early 1960's Navitimers, but you didnt care.

Look on the right site of the bridge: all early 1960's Navitimer have there a scripture "seventeen 17 jewels unadjusted"

but all the 1953 Navitimer have it not.

For me there is no any doubt, that the 1953 Navitimers are the first of all. Every other theoriy is only fantasy in a glass of beer.


To be honest, there is so much information flying around here lately that I have lost track of some of the different points that have been made. Any oversight is certainly not due to apathy, though... :lol:
And not to mention that my previous photo was simply not good enough to see this nuance and it has been about 5-6 years since I looked at the movement of my 806. :idea:
Excellent observation & thanks for making it crystal clear about the jewel count nomenclature--Kölsch clear! :wink:
Best,
T.


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 21, 2010 1:33 pm 
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Kölsch clear! :wink:

we have to drink some, when you once visit Köln.

clear is clear, but Kölsch clear is the best of all. 8) and forget any other fantasy story.

prosit

Michael :nana:


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 21, 2010 5:00 pm 
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tomvox1 wrote:
Chris K wrote:
Is it possible to get a closeup pic of the regulator?
Regards,
Chris

Maybe some other type of shock absorption system but does not look like Incabloc to me:

Best,
T.


:bow: I have to apologize for
a) writing "If you are missing an Incabloc shock protection in a watch..." instead of "If you are missing a shock protection in a watch..."
b) answering Roff's question only with a "Yes" instead of "Yes, if without shock protection".
I was simply 'joining the crowd' and taking "with Incabloc" as "with shock protection".
I should have been more precise. I wasn't. Again: Please excuse. :(

Tom's "Try again" was invitation and encouragement in one. I remembered pictures of those dubious "53ers" and their different shock protection ( http://www.moonwatchtimepieces.com/Site ... 489&back=1 , http://images.google.dk/imgres?imgurl=h ... -QaJn_XMBA (pictures 2 and 3) ) and therefore asked for a closeup picture of the regulator of Tom's Navitimer since the picture of the movement didn't tell whether with or without shock protection. I was right. Tom's Navitimer had the same shock protection as e.g. those two Navitimers in Alan Trott's article. Tom, thanks for the pictures! I haven't yet found the brand resp. the manufacturer of this shock protection. My old (1972) catalogue (FLUME K3) only mentions 83 different shock protections. This particular shock absorber is not amongst them. Anybody having better information?

Regards,
Chris


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 21, 2010 11:43 pm 
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Quote:
Tom's Navitimer had the same shock protection as e.g. those two Navitimers in Alan Trott's article. Tom, thanks for the pictures! I haven't yet found the brand resp. the manufacturer of this shock protection. My old (1972) catalogue (FLUME K3) only mentions 83 different shock protections. This particular shock absorber is not amongst them. Anybody having better information?


What is Breitling shock ? ( sometimes its better to look as to cry, when I give real good and worldwite exclusiv informations here )

viewtopic.php?f=11&t=13065&p=105820&hilit=what+is+breitling+shock+#p105820

http://breitling.lu/index.php?page=Thre ... 5#post2655

ImageImage

I think, after so many discussions here, we can finally, the childish theory from the first AOPA Navitimer 1954 put on the file.

We all know now that the first Navitimer was that of 1952/53, with Venus 178 without incabloc and with 92 beads and serial number 824xxx.


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 22, 2010 12:33 pm 
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Quote:
Chris K wrote:
Summer 1952. A Sergeant of the US Army Kaiserslautern/Germany had just finished unpacking his suitcase after his short one week holiday in Switzerland and set down to have another look at the present he had bought for his father-in-law.

He was the first of his family to visit Switzerland and he was sure to have bought the most significant present you can buy in Switzerland: A wirst watch.

It was Breitlings CHRONOMAT. The sales-clerk had told him a lot about this watch, but he remembered only one thing: The watch had a slide rule, that device his father-in-law was using for calculating the consumption of gasoline or the time of arrival when flying his Cessna. And this little device had also been the reason for numerous curses when his father-in-law couldn't remember where and in which pocket he had put it or when it fell down during a bumpy flight. The Sergeant smiled. He knew he had the perfect present for his father-in-law.

In fact, his father-in-law was so happy about this 'slide rule watch' that soon everyone of his pilot friends - all members of AOPA - knew about it. This was something they unknowingly had been waiting for and they immediately informed AOPA executives about this discovery.

AOPA executives also recognized the potentiality of this watch and after some brainstorming the idea of a special AOPA wrist watch was born. Only a short while later they were already sitting around a table in La Chaux-de-Fonds and discussed this special AOPA watch with Willy Breitling and his engineers. The rough draft for this watch was ready in a jiffy and also a suitable name was found: Navitimer (the combination of Navigation and Timer). Beside the imprinted name NAVITIMER only the AOPA logo (the letters AOPA across a coat-of-arms with a wing at each side) in 18K gold should be on the dial. The name of the manufacturer Breitling to appear only on the back cover. Sale of this watch solely in the USA by AOPA and Breitlings agent Wakman. AOPA approved Breitlings wish to also produce a small amount of Navitimers without the AOPA logo but with BREITLING GENEVE and the Breitling-'B' on the dial in order to compensate for the development costs. Sale of course only in Europe and to be organized by Breitling. The contract - a summary of all items discussed during the sessions in La Chaux-de-Fonds - was signed still in 1952.

Then in 1953 it was Breitlings turn to let this Navitimer come true. Venus S.A., Moutier informed Breitling that they could provide the required amounts of caliber 178 (14''' ) in the middle of 1955 earliest, but Valjoux S.A., Les Bioux was in the position to deliver their caliber 72 (13''' ) already beginning of 1954. Breitling decided to start the production of the Navitimer with the Valjoux 72 and to develop a watchcase which could take in either movement. Both movements had the same hight but different diameters (31,5 mm <--> 29,5 mm). In a watchcase with enough space for either movement different spacers would solve the problem. The different position of the pushers ( Valjoux 72 = non symmetrical, Venus 178 = symmetrical ) was no problem at all but only a matter of good timing i.e. to inform the manufacturer of the case right in time to drill symmetrical holes in order to avoid surplus of cases for the Valjoux 72 movement. The two different dials were also no problem. There was enough time to produce dials for a Venus 178 well in advance to be handy whenever needed. Sending samples of watchcases, dials, slide rule bezels and hands to and fro across the Atlantic was just another item on the long list of reasons slowing down the development of a watch and it wasn't until 1954 that the first Navitimer was produced.

AOPA members and pilots around the world truly seem to have waited for this 'Navitimer'. Soon the watch became a huge success and Breitling was so busy producing enough Navitimers for AOPA and Wakman that only in February 1955 they realized that important things had been forgotten since the production of the Navitimer started. This was immediately corrected and the Navitimer finally got its reference number 806 stamped on the back cover. Also the name 'NAVITIMER' was only registered in Februar 1955.

Reality taught Breitling another lesson: Big business was made in the USA, not in Europe. That is why beginning of 1959 Breitling approached AOPA with the wish to continue the production of that Navitimer with the BREITLING dial. AOPA refused but offered to meet Breitling half way and allowed Breitling to produce and sell via their own sales organization a Navitimer with a dial that showed beside the name BREITLING also the AOPA logo, though without the letters AOPA on the coat-of-arms.

This compromise was really good news for Breitling. On the day the first Navitimers with the new dial were shipped to the authorized dealers there was a celebration with good food and lots of alcohol in La Chaux-de-Fonds. The man responsible for the serial number stamping machine must have drunk more than he could stand and the next morning he inadvertently was setting this machine off by a digit. 92xxxx became 82xxxx, thus giving later generations the basis for guesswork in which year a watch might have been produced, in 1953 or in 1959/60.

Since 1959 there were two kinds of dials: The old AOPA dial, and the 'new' BREITLING dial.

Since 1962 also the 24h Navitimer was delivered with these two different dials, but Breitlings 24h Navitimer had additionaly the name COSMONAUTE imprinted on it.

The contract of 1952 kept Breitlings hands tied for 10 years. In 1963 Breitling surprised the Navitimer world with their own and completely different dial. The new Breitling logo for the Navitimer was two stylized airplanes flying in close formation. Luckily Breitling already in 1955 "secured" the copyright for the name NAVITIMER.

The AOPA Navitimer and the AOPA 24h Navitimer were produced until 1968. The dial was still the same, but since 1964 the AOPA logo was not 18K gold anymore but imprinted.


Regards,
Chris
I guess I owe you a respond, gee how I wished that your "point of view" is the true story, and who knows - maybe it is....

What did you say the name of the sergeant was ?


/ Kurt B


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 22, 2010 2:03 pm 
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Kurt B wrote:
I guess I owe you a respond, gee how I wished that your "point of view" is the true story, and who knows - maybe it is....

What did you say the name of the sergeant was ?


/ Kurt B


Kurt, honestly, I don't know. He never was introduced to me. Does this make my story untrustworthy now?


Cheers,
Chris


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