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PostPosted: Thu Jan 21, 2010 2:37 pm 
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Some thoughts/questions triggered by the thread below on Venus 178 availability that I though deserved their own thread...

I am not completely convinced by the assertion that the early Chronomats of the 1940s already had the Venus cal. 175. I realize that this appears to be accepted wisdom but I have begun to think that the Venus 175 may not have debuted until circa 1949, meaning that the earlier Chronomats would have Venus 150 movements like the contemporaneous Premiers.

Now I could be completely off base on this but let's look a sequence of Chronomat movements in chronological order and please take note of the indicated part of the movements to see the extremely subtle difference between the earlier and the later versions:

613,k SN ref. 769 (from Breitling Lounge):
Image

Listed as a ca. 1946 ref. 769 (as per WUS Chronomat History):
Image

683,k SN 769 (from Breitling Lounge):
Image

704,k SN ref. 769 (from Breitling Lounge):
Image

1.07mil SN ref. 808 (from La Mesure du Temps):
Image

1.14mil SN ref. 808 (from Breitling Lounge):
Image


So we can see at least one very subtle difference between the movements starting around 700k and if I were a watchmaker and/or had better eyes, I'm sure I could point out more differences between the earlier and the later. (BestFit lists several minor parts changes between the two calibers).

And I would lay dollars to donuts that this difference(s) are due to the earlier calibers (pre-700k maybe?) actually being Venus 150s and around 1949 they evolve into the cal. 175 (and that period could also hold roughly true IMO for the changeover from the 3-register 152 evolving into the 178). Not hard to see why people might conflate the two and maybe there is no caliber # beneath the balance wheel on the 150??? Obviously, if someone has shots of these earlier movements with the "175" under the wheel then all bets are off... :wink:

Happy to be corrected on this and best regards,
T.

P.S. Even though some late 769s may have gotten the 175 under my little theory here, this movement transition could also have been part of the impetus for the new reference number 808.


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 21, 2010 2:43 pm 
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but the difference between Venus 150 and Venus 175 is the size. Venus 150 has 13 lines, Venus 175 has 14 lines


* 150 * Chronograph Schaltrad 17 2 L-R 150 / 13´´´ Sek./30 Min
* 152 * Chronograph Schaltrad 17 3 L-R-U 150 / 13´´´ Std.-Zähler
* 186 * Chronograph Schaltrad 17 4 L-R-O-U 150 / 13´´´ Zeiger-Datum
* 187 * Chronograph Schaltrad 17 4 L-R-O-U 150 / 13´´´ Dat./Mondph.
* 191 * Chronograph Schaltrad 17 3 L-R-U 150 / 13´´´ Kal./Std.-Zähl

* 175 * Chronograph Schaltrad 17 2 L-R 175 / 14´´´ Sek./30 Min
* 178 * Chronograph Schaltrad 17 3 L-R-U 175 / 14´´´ Std.-Zähler
* 183 * Chronograph Schaltrad 17 4 L-R-O-U 175 / 14´´´ Zeiger-Datum
* 184 * Chronograph Schaltrad 17 4 L-R-O-U 175 / 14´´´ Dat./Mondph.


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 21, 2010 2:55 pm 
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here is one of the real earliest Chronomat 769 prototyp from 1941
ImageImage
Image


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 21, 2010 3:01 pm 
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breitlingmuseum wrote:
but the difference between Venus 150 and Venus 175 is the size. Venus 150 has 13 lines, Venus 175 has 14 lines


Yes, another difference for sure!
And maybe that is why we can see that the little lever that I have highlighted is longer and positioned differently--further to the outside of the movement and away from the gear--on the later watches--because of the larger movement. (Let us also remember that 1 ligne/2.25mm of total diameter difference would be very hard to see in photographs).
More proof for me that these early Chronomat movements are cal. 15x, not 17x--thank you, Michael! Of course calipers would also prove this difference beyond a reasonable doubt... 8)
Best,
T.


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 21, 2010 3:15 pm 
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Quote:
(Let us also remember that 1 ligne/2.25mm of total diameter difference would be very hard to see in photographs).


but 2,25 mm you can see, because the case is always the same size, bot i can measure it in the next days


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 21, 2010 3:50 pm 
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breitlingmuseum wrote:
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(Let us also remember that 1 ligne/2.25mm of total diameter difference would be very hard to see in photographs).


but 2,25 mm you can see, because the case is always the same size, bot i can measure it in the next days


Here we have a cal. 152 Premier from your site:

Image
Image

150: Image
175: Image

Seems like the size difference and a few other visible differences than just that one little part are apparent. Ah, well...another theory out the window. :(
Always worth a shot though, as I am always trying to learn! :D
Cheers,
T.


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 21, 2010 5:38 pm 
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I won't have time until the weekend, but I'll get out my Bestfit catalogues and try to document all of the differences between the 150s and 175s, although I'm not sure how many will be visible from a completed movement.

The ligne size difference is obviously significant but without comparison / solid reference it's difficult to tell.


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 21, 2010 10:48 pm 
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Image


Breitling never used this kind of bridge, only Benrus and other brands used this


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 22, 2010 5:31 am 
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breitlingmuseum wrote:
Image


Breitling never used this kind of bridge, only Benrus and other brands used this


Yes, it's just a generic caliber picture from Ranfft.de. :)
Best,
T.


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 23, 2010 11:01 am 
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Just checked Bestfit on visual differences.

Obviously the size is the largest difference but 175 is still listed as having 150 as the base movement. The identifiable 175 specific pieces are:

Operating lever
Operating lever hook
Coupling clutch spring
Operating lever spring
Pillar wheel jumper

Also a few screws.

The only obviously visible identifier with a completed movement would then be the operating mechanism for the chrono.

I'm not sure that this adds anything to the overall debate of whether early Chronomats had 150s, although I would love to get my hands on both and see whether these supposedly unique parts are practically interchangeable!

Would also like to see what the arbor positioning is for each movement relative to each other and see whether they are interchangeable in that regard.


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 29, 2010 3:38 pm 
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What would you think the movement would be here?

S/N 544923 Ref 789 (1943?)

Image

Image

My ignorant eye cannot spot the differences from the fine examples posted here. Does anyone have a guess?

Thank you.
David


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 29, 2010 4:07 pm 
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baddogbad wrote:
What would you think the movement would be here?

S/N 544923 Ref 789 (1943?)

Image

Image

My ignorant eye cannot spot the differences from the fine examples posted here. Does anyone have a guess?

Thank you.
David


Well leaving aside any other concerns about this one......

I suspect that it's a 150 - a photo with a rule / movement gauge would confirm for sure.

The bridge engraving looks a little iffy to me though, although it's not the clearest photo. Can we see the rest of the watch?


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 29, 2010 4:13 pm 
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Thanks. I'll take some fresh pics tomorrow and post them.


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 30, 2010 3:05 pm 
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Roffensian,

Here's a fresh set from today. I believe this is a Venus 150 since it is a smaller watch (and I hope this contributes to this thread discussion.) Not a Premier (too early for that) I was told it was listed in a catalog simply as "Wrist Chronograph" by a guy over on TimeZone.

The only marks on the movement are "Breitling" in script (that you can see) and the words "17Seventeen Jewels" over "Unadjusted" just below and to the right of that "Breitling" bridge (that I can't seem to photograph too well.)

You did say "iffy" and that scares me. Is there something about my watch that bothers you with a better look? Please let me know. I think I'm going to have to sell this and I don't want to mislead anyone.

Thanks again,
David

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 30, 2010 3:32 pm 
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OK, got my copy of Richter out when I got home and he confirms that the 789 is a Venus 150 - actually a 151 but that's basically the same movement with different finishing. The 150 had beveled plates, the 151 had plain plates. I'm speculating, but I think that was to allow for thinner plates on the 151 which is consistent with this watch which was pretty thin for it's time.

I do have some concerns with this watch. Firstly, despite the (water?) damage the dial looks to be in fairly good condition for a watch approaching 70 years old, so I'm a little suspicious that it's not original. Additionally, the 3 minute markings (for timing long distance phone calls which were billed in 3 minute intervals) are usually seen in post war watches when the 3 minute billing became widespread - this watch is claiming to be pre-1944 so that worries me.

Finally, as I hinted at earlier, I'm not completely convinced that the Breitling engraving on the bridge is original - it doesn't look quite right to me. See what others say.


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