The Breitling Watch Source Forums

"What I never understand, why are this Wakmanns so cheap"
(SSSSSSSHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!) ;>)

"Why this Rolex watchmakers dont buy the Wakmanns only for parts?"

Most of the parts appear to be interchangable and I would assume that does happen when NOS parts are not available. The obvious differences are the balance regulator and the refined finishes on some parts.

"Incabloc" on the dial on this one. 1957 or later, maybe???
Best,
T.

Had one of these briefly as well but with a gilt 730 movement:









And who knows what "Pingouin Watch Co" is??? A part of Gigandet case makers maybe?

IMHO, these Wakmann complications are exceptional value for money, even those with rather pedestrian case construction like the above.

As an aside: Anyone ever see a Wakmann Valjoux 88 Triple Date Moonphase? I haven't but that does not mean too much...
Best,
T.

Why 1957 ? Breitling used the incabloc also in the Navitimer with Valjoux 72 in 1954. I think this wakmann is exact from 1954, because AOPA in first version.

Just because of the discussion from the other day:
"In the U.S., The trademark "Incabloc" was registered on October 8, 1957"
http://www.clockswatches.com/showpage.php?em=1166

But maybe they were already putting it on dials prior to this without trademark protection.
Another question: Were all AOPA-signed watches destined for the US market?
Best,
T.

Another question for you, Michael (in addition to the Wakmann Val. 88 Triple Moon Chrono one from earlier ):
In the vast amount of Breitlings and Wakmanns that you have handled, have you ever run across Breitling watches from the 1950s in Wakmann cases? That is to say, Breitling-signed dial/movement/etc but all signs of being a Wakmann case: non-beveled lugs and early use of external caseback nomenclature as on your watch--terms such as "Incabloc"/"Pressure Tested"/"Stainless Steel"/"5 ATM"/etc--that weren't used on Breitling cases until the 1960s.

TIA & best,
T.

This says nothing, it is as Roff told in other place, Breitling used the incabloc before and registred it later. In the Navitimer 72 AOPA from 1954 Breitling also used incabloc in USA.

Michael M.

for wakmann, please look here: photo - http://www.wakmann.de/wak/museum/wakmann-1930-1980/


I'm not a realy lover and specialist of Wakmann, I only love the Wakmann Datoras, because these are in the processing and quality of the movement and the cases the real best of all Datoras-Dato-Compax's, better as Rolex, Breitling, Heuer, Breguet and every other brands Datoras.

Here you can see my complete Datora collection. http://breitling.lu/index.php?page=Thre ... 0#post2590
(excuse for the link, but its to much for translate and copy complet, if the mod dont want the link, please remove it, I dont want disturbe this forum)

I real love this Datoras, more as every other watch in my collection.

Thanks, Michael. I'm aware of that resource, although it's certainly not comprehensive. I think you have more examples in your collection.

I still haven't seen any Wakmann Datora Vollkalender + Mondphase Chronograph, though...

I think what I am asking is getting lost a bit in translation but I'll try one last time:

Have you ever seen any watches from the (early-mid) 1950s, when Breitling and Wakmann USA were extremely close--Breitling und Wakmann mit der gleichen Fälle?
Danke and best,
T.

me too, I never have seen a wakmann moonphase Datora, I think i dont exist.

Breitling moonphase Datoras exist, but they are very very rare, I have seen only 2 in my live with Valjoux 88.

Hallo Tom, you mean this watch ? http://forums.watchuseek.com/showthread.php?t=217645

Big excuse for my opinion, but I think: This watch was never a Breitling, the case and caseback could be from a Wakmann, but not breitling.
the dial is a reprint, the bridge is not from this watch. But its only my opinion.

Well, you have very good company in that opinion...but I still love this watch and believe there is something to it and probably that something has to do with the relationship between Breitling and Wakmann at the time (ca. 1954)...



Never fails to bring a smile to my face when I strap it on even if I am a minority of 1--but I think someday I will be vindicated.

As for the dial, please have a look at these two Baume & Mercier Val. 88s with "sloppy" hour counter printing where the numbers cross the register:





Now, who would reprint a dial & put Baume & Mercier on it???
Let's face it: dials from the 1950s are not always as "pretty" as we would like them to be...
Best,
T.

P.S. Bridge from a Datora Venus 200 (maybe even from your site?):



Not so different from mine aside from the lack of jewel/adjustment nomenclature:



And it's only logical that a manufacturer-signed bridge would be added to an off-the-shelf Valjoux movement, hence the difference in finish, IMHO.

You are right, its a nice watch and if you love it, its ok. Nobody from us was there 60 years ago, when the watch was made and knows what was real happend and produced in this turbulent times. More as 50 different companys have made the same Datora with Valjoux 72C/88 , it was the most famous watch of all the times.

I love all these Datoras, not just those of Breitling , they are fantastic watches and I can not understand why someone fake it. For me they are all very valuable, equal, whether from Breitling, Rolex, Heuer, Baume & Mercier, Vulcain, Marvin or other brands.

Its only my opinion, that your Datora not was a Breitling, the bridge is 100 % original from Breitling, but may be not from this watch, the dial is 100 % from a Datora, but I think not the Breitling signatur, the movemnent is 100 % Valjoux 88 as in 90 % of all Datoras of this time, they where all produced in the same factory, only the brand signatur is different.

Take a look at this beauty:

I know the conventional wisdom is that this is not a correct signature/script style BUT...

In my research I have found these black Chronomats with very similar (identical?) script to mine:







So, IMHO, we can add these to the list of acceptable "open-B" script styles:



Also, I have never seen a re-done dial where the engine-turned registers were still this crisp, as this detail is usually smoothed away in the re-finishing process, not to mention the satin texture and gold markers:



Excuse the dreadful picture but also note the SWISS MADE below 6 is spot on for a watch of this era, re: fonts.

And how many genuine Breitling Valjoux bridges would be available to add to this movement? What other watch would it have come from? A Val. 72 Navitimer? Seeing as those are worth double this one, I'm not sure that makes any real sense...

As you, say: there is no real premium to be got by slapping "Breitling" on a Val 88 dial, as none of these watches is currently worth more than any of the others really (we are not talking Patek or Rolex complication values here, fair or not). I certainly did not pay a significant premium for this watch over a similar Heuer, Record, Baume, Nicolet, etc.

So I just don' t understand why someone would go to all this trouble--genuine Val 88 movement, add a signed bridge, inner caseback engraving, outer caseback ref & serial # to a genuine Wakmann case then refinish the dial in two textures and colors and sign it (very professionally, as we see above) "Breitling." To what purpose? Would probably cost more to do all that than the watch is currently worth!

My theory is this: Circa mid-1950s, Breitling had some few spare Valjoux 88 movements in inventory for whatever reason but did not have the proper calendar corrector cases for them any more. So they turned to their sister company Wakmann to provide the case and put out one last series of these using the available "804" reference # (denoting water resistant screw back case) after the earlier and more conventional Breitling-cased versions from the late 1940s. And that is why these 1950s series 804s are all somewhat different and strange:





But as I said, I am in love with this watch and love makes one believe all sorts of silly things. So you are perfectly within your rights to join the large group of folks shaking their heads and tut-tutting at my foolish beliefs!

Gorgeous Minerva (a great marque in its own right).
Best,
T.

As I said before:
Everything is possible, but usual Breitling used the "BREITLING" in old hand scrip only till 1951, after they used the "BREITLING GENEVE" in blockscrip.