The Breitling Watch Source Forums

I just happened upon this forum website dedicated to headphones and headphone accessories. Like BSource, there's a ton of information, and wide-ranging opinions. But it seems like a good place to do some research before the purchase, rather than letting the teenagers at Best Buy talk you into something.

http://www.head-fi.org

Just be aware that:

1) A lot of threads are sponsored / promoted by the companies that make the products
2) Some of the discussions can get a little 'pointed'

But yes, it's a very knolwedgeable community about extremely high end audio.

Thanks, Roff. I haven't done much exploring of the forums, just the review threads so far. I've noticed that they always start out with a blurb about the product that is clearly written by the company that makes it, but then contain (sometimes brutally) honest reviews. I don't like being spoon fed PR, but as long as the reviews themselves aren't being written by shills, I don't have a problem with it. Is there anything else going on there we should be aware of?

I trust some reviewers more than others, but generally speaking all reviews are honest. However, audio, especially at this level where the differences can be very subtle is much more subjective than most other products. I have read some glowing reviews and then gone out to listen to some of the kits and been extremely disappointed because I hear things differently.

You also have to consider the variables - I am into portable audio more than home and there are people there who will spend $1,000 plus on a 2" long cable to connect their source to their headphone amp, that will sound a lot better than the same kit with a stock cable (though perhaps not $1,000 better!).

Well, I've changed my opinion. The noise canceling feature is solid, but for listening to music, not so great. I've used them now for about 2 weeks, and I'm no audiophile but I'll say that there's stuff "missing."

I'll stand by what I said earlier in the thread as I just went to LA from Chicago and back in a day. The QC2's are fantastic at cancelling the engine noise that most other passengers were suffering through. To me, they sound great on the plane, which is the only time I use them.

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I got the QC15s last week. I think they're good for what they are: noise canceling headphones designed to be plugged directly into an iPod or laptop. The noise canceling aspect is top notch; they really dampen the noise, although they are most effective with noises similar to jet engine noise - steady white noise (say, the blower on the house furnace, the dishwasher, etc.). They are less adept at screening out more "acute" noises. Sonically they are good, but it's clear these are not intended for the discriminating audiophile: they come with absolutely no printed specifications (none online, either), and with this newest model, Bose no longer includes a 1/4" adapter jack; I had to keep mine from my older pair. I can only go by memory, but the sound in the upper frequencies on the QC15s strikes me as a little less forgiving than with the QC2s - on some recordings, they can start to sound a bit harsh. This becomes even more apparent when comparing them to the Sennheiser HD570s. While the Senns tend to color the music a lot, they are also much smoother sounding. Given that I only paid $100 for the Bose, I'm not complaining. They'll be great for travel, or for easy around-the-house listening. But I already have my eyes on a better setup for more serious listening.

On that note, I have a question for Roff, or anyone else who knows about this kind of stuff. If I go with a high-impedance headphone - say 300 ohms (I'm thinking of the Senn HD650, or something similar), and I have home entertainment amps that have 4 - 16 ohm output impedance, would I need to consider a dedicated amp for the headphones? I was toying with the idea of pairing the HD650s with the MP-301 MK2 tube amp, but considering its output impedance is 4-8 ohms, am I really gaining anything in the ability to power the headphones? I understand tubes add another dimension altogether, but my first consideration is adequate power.

Edit: As usual, further research largely answered my question. I did think it was interesting at least one post noted the difference in headphone jack quality between AV receivers and standard stereo receivers. I have both. I'll have to check to see if the stereo-only sounds better than the AV jack. Still, it sounds like a dedicated amp is still the best choice. In addition to the Musical Paradise tube amp, I've also been checking out the Schitt Asgard (solid state) and the Schitt Valhalla (tube). All get fairly good reviews on Head-Fi as being excellent for the price, so it seems like an achievable goal to get a decent setup (phones and amp) for a grand or less. Any thoughts on tubes versus solid state?

To me a dedicated headphone amp is always worthwhile unless ultra portability is a concern. You have to look beyond the pure math of power and impedence and consider the impact on sound quality and an amp will help to get more out of it.

You also have to consider where you are taking the music from (source) and what that device is doing - is it just a source or is it also doing hte processing. There are also going to be restrictions that will impact quality - you can't 'improve' what's there in 1s and 0s, just minimise the loss and tune it for your listening preferences. So if you start with a 64k mp3 then you aren't going to get FLAC quality through a $10,000 set up. If you aren't using SPDIF or line out then quality is again compromised, if you use a cheap cable that affects it, etc, etc.

If you are running an iPod consider Rockboxing it - http://www.rockbox.org/

In terms of amp, I'm not hung up on SS vs. tube, I just care about what sounds good to me (we're back to that again). Personally I like Emmeline - SR-71B or Predator - Predator's the value option and honestly it's almost as good sound wise.

Careful though - you can soon start spending serious money here.

I typically listen to CDs or lossless audio files, the latter via iPod. Unfortunately, while my AV receiver can decode digital signals from my various disc players, it will not pass along the decoded analog signal to an auxiliary output, which would allow me to pass it on to a headphone amp. In other words, I'm pretty much left using the DAC present in my CD deck, and passing the analog stereo signal on to the headphone amp, either directly from the deck, or via the receiver. Of course, I could get an external DAC, but my interest right now is in a good set of headphones and a suitable amp. Upgrading the source may come at a later time.

As for my iPod, right now, the best results I get with it are simply running the headphone jack into my receiver using an RCA conversion cord; I could just run it directly into a headphone amp the same way. I've tried using a dock to connect it via the non-amplified port, but it sounds terrible that way - tons of noise; the headphone jack is surprisingly way better. The time may come when I invest in the necessary equipment so I can use it as a digital-out source, but I'm not there yet. For now, my iPod is analog-out only. I see Rockbox makes an iPod FLAC capable, which is a nice improvement, but does it enable unencrypted digital output?

Edit: For the sake of staying on topic, I'll point out that despite being designed for use with an iPod jack, the QC15s nevertheless sounded better when plugged into my AV receiver. Interestingly, the jack on the stereo receiver sounded like crap, despite being a fairly good amp for speakers.

I don't think that you can digitally out through Rockbox - I'm not using an iPod so not 100%, you're going to need a CLAS to do that (http://cypherlabs.com/product/algorhythm-solo) and there goes the budget. Personally, while I've heard good things about that set up I would just invest in a better source like a HiFiMan or a Colorfly.

Don't understand why the line out is so noisy - are you sure that it's not a cable / dock / other issue? You can also make a big improvement to jacked output with upgraded cables and jacks.

As you are no doubt discovering headphone amps are a minefield in themselves and pricing can be hugely variable. Try to listen to some yourself if possible so that you aren't relying on reviews - no matter how objective, they aren't your ears.

I would also focus on the headphones that you want first - they are going to have the biggest impact on the sound that reaches you so figure out what type you want - 570 style over ear or IEM and then get the amp that best matches - especially if you are looking for a portable amp to serve for both home and mobile use.

The CLAS was what I was referring to when I said "invest in necessary equipment." But considering what I'm really paying for is to compensate for the iPod's inferior design, I agree - it makes more sense just to buy a better player. Both HiFiMan and Colorfly look promising, but both are expensive, somewhat tricky to purchase, and evidently have very little storage capacity. I'd fill up 32GB just blinking. Then again, the ability to use Flash cards might actually be a better option - infinite expandability.


Yeah, this whole thing is starting to make my head hurt a little. Auditioning is tough. I'll have to track down some decent stores that carry some of this stuff - amps and headphones alike. The big box stores not only don't carry most higher-end models, they also don't demo - their policy is they'd rather have you buy it blind (or deaf), and then return it if you don't like it.

I'm fortunate to work about 5 minutes from these guys - http://baybloorradio.com/ - they are still a little bit 'mass market high end', but they know their stuff and are more than happy to let you listen to different options back to back.

If you have anyone like that, it's well worth spending some time talking to them. Once you decide on the headphones then it's easier to buy the amp blind because you can rely on the reviews a little more to at least identify where they are emphasising / de-emphasising the sound and you can match that to what your headphones are doing andyour personal listening tastes.

I came back to this thread to see which model of Shure you'd recommended, since I'm considering the SE 535s, then I saw your comment on Bose. I know you were discussing the QC3, but Bose seems intent on laying that cliche to waste with the QC15. A quick look at the FR graph for the model shows pretty spiky upper mids, and exaggerated sub-bass. Those aren't necessarily good things to audiophiles, and the levels themselves do not comment on the quality with which the QC15 produces those frequencies, but I don't think the QC15 is lacking in either highs or lows.

Get the 535s.

I've been using the 530s (the predecessors) for a couple of years and have been very pleased. I am in the process of upgrading my entire portable kit - iBasso DX100, Jerry Harvey JH-3a matched with JH 16 Pros, and custom Whiplash cables. That will be a step up if for no other reason than the IEMs will be custom fit, but the 530s are the best universal fit that I have ever heard.

That JH16/3A combo looks killer. I've considered it, but I'm not sure I want to go that high end right now, since everything else in the chain is decidedly mid-fi. I was curious how a "lower end" custom like the JH5 would compare to the SE 535. Obviously being custom provides certain advantages, but based on the specs, I'm not sure.