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 Post subject: Hello to all.
PostPosted: Sun Oct 01, 2017 2:02 pm 
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I have been a minor collector of Omegas for a while but after I acquired an early 50's chronograph
I found myself more interested in that than the posh dress watches.

I looked at a few and came across the Breitling Top Time 2002. (With a red sweep hand.) However it was with a dealer of whom
I am highly dubious. (Silly prices, refinished dials etc)

I found this far more elegant and attractive than all the lumpen Speedies etc. (It is why I have a Mk2 Speedie!)

So that's what I am looking for. I made a lot of mistakes in the early days with Omegas, so that's why
I came here first.

A few "facts" I have learnt, quite possibly incorrectly.

All the 2002 have monocoque cases? Early had a Venus movement (some sources say 178 others 188), but later this was a Valjeux (?) which was the same thing under a new name?
There was a Mk1 with lugs more like a Omega Connie, the Mk 2 had smaller lugs with a smaller strap width? (Seems hardly worth the effort.)
2001 are very similar but with snap on back?
810 have 3 minor dials (like a speedie)

So any advice of where to find a genuine watch to start my collection would be appreciated.

I prefer the single colour dials but others would be of interest to start a collection.

Thanks
Vince


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 Post subject: Re: Hello to all.
PostPosted: Sun Oct 01, 2017 2:09 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: Hello to all.
PostPosted: Sun Oct 01, 2017 10:33 pm 
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welcome, Vince !

maybe Roff will be kind enough to move this introdution to the vintage section, but some quick answers here:

"All the 2002 have monocoque cases? "
the 2002 cases were manufactured by EPSA Piquerez, the company best known for theior "Super Compressor" dive watch cases - only the first variation was (1964 serials) were monocoque, i.e. manufactured from a single piece of stainless stell, later versions were "compressor" casebacks.

"Early had a Venus movement (some sources say 178 others 188), but later this was a Valjeux (?) which was the same thing under a new name?"
if we are talking about the 2002, this never had a Venus 178 (or 175, which would be the column wheel version without an hour counter), all ref. 2002 had lever chrono movements, starting with the Venus cal. 188 from 1964 to late 1966; after Venus SA was taken over by Valjoux in 1966 the same movements were then marked Valjoux R7730. From 1969 onwards these were replaced by the new "mass market" caliber Valjoux R7733. most, but not all of these later pieces are marked 2002-33. Mk2 ref. 2002 have wider hands & "full" dials, while the Mk1 uses a dial insert, with tachy, decimal or pulsometer scales, only Mk2 were available as "true panda", i.e black subials on a silverwhite dial.

these are the only documented "correct" Mk1 2002 variations:
Image

here are the two Mk2 variations, not my watches, but (previously?) owned by member "Dracha", you could contact Rene by pm and see if he still has those for sale ?
Image
Image

"There was a Mk1 with lugs more like a Omega Connie, the Mk 2 had smaller lugs with a smaller strap width? (Seems hardly worth the effort.)"
no visible differences in lug design of the Mk1 & MK2 on the 2002, the also use the same lug width, only the 810 had these visibly different executions.

"810 have 3 minor dials (like a speedie)"
yes, and these are only correct with the Venus cal. 178; some examples here; again "true panda" only on Mk2
Image

"So any advice of where to find a genuine watch to start my collection would be appreciated."
ebay, auction houses, chrono24, dealers - and ask here before you purchase !

best, Fred


Last edited by WatchFred on Mon Oct 02, 2017 2:54 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Hello to all.
PostPosted: Mon Oct 02, 2017 2:41 am 
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WatchFred wrote:
welcome, Vince !

maybe Roff will be kind enough to move this introdution to the vintage section, but some quick answers here:

"All the 2002 have monocoque cases? "
the 2002 cases were manufactured by EPSA Piquerez, the company best known for theior "Super Compressor" dive watch cases - only the first variation was (1964 serials) were monocoque, i.e. manufactured from a single piece of stainless stell, later versions were "compressor" casebacks.

"Early had a Venus movement (some sources say 178 others 188), but later this was a Valjeux (?) which was the same thing under a new name?"
if we are talking about the 2002, this never had a Venus 178 (or 175, which would be the column wheel version without an hour counter), all ref. 2002 had lever chrono movements, starting with the Venus cal. 188 from 1964 to late 1966; after Venus SA was taken over by Valjoux in 1966 the same movements were then marked Valjoux R7730. From 1960 onwards these were replaced by the new "mass market" caliber Valjoux R7733. most, but not all of these later pieces are marked 2002-33. Mk2 ref. 2002 have wider hands & "full" dials, while the Mk1 uses a dial insert, with tachy, decimal or pulsometer scales, only Mk2 were available as "true panda", i.e black subials on a silverwhite dial.

these are the only documented "correct" Mk1 2002 variations:
Image

here are the two Mk2 variations, not my watches, but (previously?) owned by member "Dracha", you could contact Rene by pm and see if he still has those for sale ?
Image
Image

"There was a Mk1 with lugs more like a Omega Connie, the Mk 2 had smaller lugs with a smaller strap width? (Seems hardly worth the effort.)"
no visible differences in lug design of the Mk1 & MK2 on the 2002, the also use the same lug width, only the 810 had these visibly different executions.

"810 have 3 minor dials (like a speedie)"
yes, and these are only correct with the Venus cal. 178; some examples here; again "true panda" pnly on Mk2
Image

"So any advice of where to find a genuine watch to start my collection would be appreciated."
ebay, auction houses, chrono24, dealers - and ask here before you purchase !

best, Fred



Fred, that is great info thanks very much. Makes Top Time determination a lot easier. A question on the movements chronology, i can follow the chronology but i must be missing something as Top Time started in 1964? This seems inconsistent to me?

"From 1960 onwards these were replaced by the new "mass market" caliber Valjoux R7733."



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 Post subject: Re: Hello to all.
PostPosted: Mon Oct 02, 2017 2:54 am 
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thank you; 1969 onwards, this was a typo, now corrected
the 7733 and the 7736 were introduced in 1969.


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 Post subject: Re: Hello to all.
PostPosted: Mon Oct 02, 2017 2:54 am 
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There is imo a pretty good overview Top Time history and watches at the Springbar. It is not completely accurate as they dont differentiate certain sub models / marks 1.1 -1.2 etc but gives good overview of Top Times:

https://thespringbar.com/blogs/guides/c ... g-top-time



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 Post subject: Re: Hello to all.
PostPosted: Mon Oct 02, 2017 3:16 am 
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WatchFred wrote:
thank you; 1969 onwards, this was a typo, now corrected
the 7733 and the 7736 were introduced in 1969.


You are welcome


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 Post subject: Re: Hello to all.
PostPosted: Mon Oct 02, 2017 7:30 am 
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Thank you all for your responses.

Especially WatchFred.

So to put it simply 2002 Mk1 V Mk2.

Mk1 has pointed hands, slimmer hour markers and crown? Slightly less minor dial depression?
Only early Mk1 ( >66) has Venus movement and monocoque case.
Attachment:
ScreenHunter_232 Oct. 02 12.05.jpg


810 has similar difference with regard to hands and crown. Minor variations on dial
"yes, and these are only correct with the Venus cal. 178; some examples here; again "true panda" only on Mk2"
Does this only apply to 810 Mk1 as with early 2002?
Attachment:
ScreenHunter_236 Oct. 02 14.58.jpg


This shows A/ A remarkable price and B/ a Valjoux 7736 movement C/ a 1968 date. Dubious?
http://www.worldoftime.de/de/breitling/ ... 21593.html

If the 2002 is a Panda, an 810 must be a "shocked" Panda?

Vince


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 Post subject: Re: Hello to all.
PostPosted: Mon Oct 02, 2017 10:14 am 
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I‘d like to see a movement shot of that Meertz 810, assume incorrect description.

„true panda“, i.e. black subdials on white base dial appear only in Mk2, both 810and 2002


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 Post subject: Re: Hello to all.
PostPosted: Mon Oct 02, 2017 10:31 am 
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I'm not sure if the price seems that high. I believe we've been seeing 810s hitting upper $6-low $7 in the auctions recently.


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 Post subject: Re: Hello to all.
PostPosted: Mon Oct 02, 2017 11:32 am 
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WatchFred wrote:
I‘d like to see a movement shot of that Meertz 810, assume incorrect description.

„true panda“, i.e. black subdials on white base dial appear only in Mk2, both 810and 2002


How can you tell the difference between Venus and Valjoux movement? I assume neither are marked as such?

Is there a pecking order in the various dials value wise? Plain / panda / reverse panda etc.

I prefer the plain silver, then the reverse but I accept it is purely a personal thing.

Vince


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 Post subject: Re: Hello to all.
PostPosted: Mon Oct 02, 2017 12:19 pm 
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Venus 188 and Valjoux R7730 are the same movements with different markings.
all others are very different and easy to tell apart.

reverse panda are quite a bit more expensive on the 2002


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 Post subject: Re: Hello to all.
PostPosted: Wed Oct 04, 2017 6:41 am 
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Vandeg wrote:
WatchFred wrote:
welcome, Vince !

maybe Roff will be kind enough to move this introdution to the vintage section, but some quick answers here:

"All the 2002 have monocoque cases? "
the 2002 cases were manufactured by EPSA Piquerez, the company best known for theior "Super Compressor" dive watch cases - only the first variation was (1964 serials) were monocoque, i.e. manufactured from a single piece of stainless stell, later versions were "compressor" casebacks.

"Early had a Venus movement (some sources say 178 others 188), but later this was a Valjeux (?) which was the same thing under a new name?"
if we are talking about the 2002, this never had a Venus 178 (or 175, which would be the column wheel version without an hour counter), all ref. 2002 had lever chrono movements, starting with the Venus cal. 188 from 1964 to late 1966; after Venus SA was taken over by Valjoux in 1966 the same movements were then marked Valjoux R7730. From 1960 onwards these were replaced by the new "mass market" caliber Valjoux R7733. most, but not all of these later pieces are marked 2002-33. Mk2 ref. 2002 have wider hands & "full" dials, while the Mk1 uses a dial insert, with tachy, decimal or pulsometer scales, only Mk2 were available as "true panda", i.e black subials on a silverwhite dial.

these are the only documented "correct" Mk1 2002 variations:
Image

here are the two Mk2 variations, not my watches, but (previously?) owned by member "Dracha", you could contact Rene by pm and see if he still has those for sale ?
Image
Image

"There was a Mk1 with lugs more like a Omega Connie, the Mk 2 had smaller lugs with a smaller strap width? (Seems hardly worth the effort.)"
no visible differences in lug design of the Mk1 & MK2 on the 2002, the also use the same lug width, only the 810 had these visibly different executions.

"810 have 3 minor dials (like a speedie)"
yes, and these are only correct with the Venus cal. 178; some examples here; again "true panda" pnly on Mk2
Image

"So any advice of where to find a genuine watch to start my collection would be appreciated."
ebay, auction houses, chrono24, dealers - and ask here before you purchase !

best, Fred



Fred, that is great info thanks very much. Makes Top Time determination a lot easier. A question on the movements chronology, i can follow the chronology but i must be missing something as Top Time started in 1964? This seems inconsistent to me?

"From 1960 onwards these were replaced by the new "mass market" caliber Valjoux R7733."



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One more question, remark, on the TT 810. I noticed that there is a difference in lug width between different 810's. Am I correct when i say the mark 1 with "rounded longer" lugs have a lug widt of 21 mm and the mark 2 with the "shorter angular lugs" have a lug width of 19 mm? Or can we make a more granular distinction?


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 Post subject: Re: Hello to all.
PostPosted: Wed Oct 04, 2017 6:44 am 
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nothing "more granular" to add, Mk1s are 21, Mk2s 19mm


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 Post subject: Re: Hello to all.
PostPosted: Wed Oct 04, 2017 6:48 am 
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WatchFred wrote:
nothing "more granular" to add, Mk1s are 21, Mk2s 19mm


Thanks, i still get lost a bit in the 810's with the mark 1.1, mark 2, transitional models etc. So that is good know.


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