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PostPosted: Wed Oct 02, 2013 5:37 am 
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have stayed quiet in this thread, might have publicly puked; I'd rather avoid this.
surprised by the newfound eloquence; does TheSage now have a ghostwriter ?

Renè, I admire you :bow:.
no, not a cynical SageBow.


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 02, 2013 6:04 am 
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Also have stayed out, and do not believe that tomwak is Michael, rather a proxy. IP addresses are noted and given that every post seems to be from a new one am developing a nice long list.

In terms of this watch and our new seller member, well I have moved the discussion to the replica section which probably tells you enough about what I think about it. I do not see any reason here to believe that this is any more genuine than any of the many other South American sourced pieces and would love to know the provenance of this piece that leads the seller to assure us that it is real. Personally I will take much convincing, so I guess that I have no common sense either.

However, I do have enough sense to trust my own judgment and the judgment of valued members of the Breitling community!


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 02, 2013 6:28 am 
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I apologize if I come off as gruff or abrasive when it comes to these SA items. I am sure that there are some fine original ones selling, I just have not seen any. When one does not want to show evidence to back up their beliefs is when one gets looked at with a sense of bewilderment. If I am wrong, show me, educate me and I will say I am wrong and thank you for the newfound information.
There are now an untold number of fake paintings by major artists floating around the world painted by a Chinese artist in NY and sold by a VERY reputable art dealer in said city that some hang in the finest museums in the world. And they are FAKES. Not to say this watch dealer is doing such but to say just because you are a dealer does not mean you cannot be duped. Just ask those museum curators.

Wayne


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 02, 2013 2:10 pm 
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WatchFred wrote:

Renè, I admire you :bow:.
no, not a cynical SageBow.


Well, i would like to take credit for my own "calm state of mind" , there is however one pulp fiction quote going throuugh my mind all the time Fred ,

As Marcellus so eloquently put it

"What now? Let me tell you what now. I'ma call a coupla hard, pipe-hittin' ******s, who'll go to work on the homes here with a pair of pliers and a blow torch. You hear me talkin', hillbilly boy? I ain't through with you by a damn sight. I'ma get medieval on your ass."

So much for the very thin layer of being civilized when dealing with :bow:

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 02, 2013 2:15 pm 
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Roffensian wrote:
Also have stayed out, and do not believe that tomwak is Michael, rather a proxy. IP addresses are noted and given that every post seems to be from a new one am developing a nice long list.!


Roff, i dont know what good it will do to keep ip lists, theres a browser " the onion browser" that will allow anon. Browsing and will provide new ip adresses on the fly. Much easier to trust your gut instinct assisted with used grammar and attitude used by certain parties to identify them.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 02, 2013 3:36 pm 
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Dracha wrote:
Roffensian wrote:
Also have stayed out, and do not believe that tomwak is Michael, rather a proxy. IP addresses are noted and given that every post seems to be from a new one am developing a nice long list.!


Roff, i dont know what good it will do to keep ip lists, theres a browser " the onion browser" that will allow anon. Browsing and will provide new ip adresses on the fly. Much easier to trust your gut instinct assisted with used grammar and attitude used by certain parties to identify them.



Yes, but our friend ain't that smart - two IP ranges for the whole darned lot :-)

I also had to edit a word in your other post, I know it's a quote, but that word's an absolute no-no.


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 02, 2013 11:34 pm 
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Roffensian wrote:

I also had to edit a word in your other post, I know it's a quote, but that word's an absolute no-no.


Thanks, being non-native english speaker I missed the implications of certain words, my appologies and it wont happen again

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 03, 2013 1:28 pm 
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Very emotional here - again!

It's no problem to fake IP-adresses, this is correct.

I don't see (currently) a problem with this datora. I have a 244-96 which is looking similar in some details.

I've written in another (datora) thread, I don't like the tone in the discussion and here the same thing happens again. Is everyone a diddler (?, I don't know the right English word for Betrüger) who's selling a datora, which is not printed in Benno Richters book?

It's easy to check if estelau is a ghostwriter, Roff can contact him via eBay. I think, he's neutral.

Cal_11


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 03, 2013 2:07 pm 
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Cal-11 , i dont see any questions so I am not sure what you expect from participants to this thread or the forum in general, ormaybe you just dont like the way I state certain things ?

But please elaborate why you believe this/these 2 datora's are genuine and i'll give you my thoughts as to why I believe they are not

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 03, 2013 10:09 pm 
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cal-11, we were not referring to Mr. Estelau, but to the OP.


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 04, 2013 2:17 am 
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WatchFred wrote:
cal-11, we were not referring to Mr. Estelau, but to the OP.


What means OP?

Dracha wrote:
Cal-11 , i dont see any questions so I am not sure what you expect from participants to this thread or the forum in general, ormaybe you just dont like the way I state certain things ?

But please elaborate why you believe this/these 2 datora's are genuine and i'll give you my thoughts as to why I believe they are not


I'm shure, Mr März has bought both watches from Estelau and he's the one who has informed Estelau about this thread, but that doesn't matter.

I simply expect a objective discussion about watches and no bashing. Do you think, someone would buy this watch in some years, if he reads this thread? If someone here thinks, a watch is a fake, he should write why! And if he writes this, HE should give proofed facts why!

The Breitling-sign and "17 jewels" at the movement is not centered, but for me this is no proof, that this is a fake. Some datoras were engraved at the bridge, some others excatly there (in different styles).

Breitling Datoras were very rare and sometimes you can find two models with identical Refs which are not looking absolutely similar. My 244-96 has a gold plated movent while others with this ref don't have this.

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Like this pne from the same seller , damn they have a great watchm(f)aker theree

http://www.ebay.de/itm/COLLECTABLE-BREI ... 7675.l2557


I don't understand, what you mean. The Breitling-Sign at the dial is not easy to fake (it's the same like on my 244-96) because it's embossed. The movement is OK for me.

cal_11


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 04, 2013 3:31 am 
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cal_11 wrote:
What means OP?



OP = Original Poster. The person who started the thread, tomwak (perhaps also known as someone else that we all have some not great experience with).


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 04, 2013 9:23 am 
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cal_11 wrote:
I'm shure, Mr März has bought both watches from Estelau and he's the one who has informed Estelau about this thread, but that doesn't matter.


Actually it does matter , but I dont mind having the original seller here, makes the conversation and discussion much easier , but it seems both michael and the seller opted out of the discussion *shrugs*

cal_11 wrote:
I simply expect a objective discussion about watches and no bashing. Do you think, someone would buy this watch in some years, if he reads this thread? If someone here thinks, a watch is a fake, he should write why! And if he writes this, HE should give proofed facts why!


the whole point is to warn people about questionable pieces , and if someone wants me to explain why I think its fake, spending hours doing picture work etc I expect the person claiming the watches to be real to also put time and effort into convincing me they're real. If the person claiming them to be real does not want to spend any time on it why should I ?

cal_11 wrote:
The Breitling-sign and "17 jewels" at the movement is not centered, but for me this is no proof, that this is a fake. Some datoras were engraved at the bridge, some others excatly there (in different styles).


Well, coming from a manufacturing and engineering background I disagree , 2 watches from the same year , same reference and close in serial number should be exactly the same, else you have manufacturing defects , which is unacceptable

cal_11 wrote:
Breitling Datoras were very rare and sometimes you can find two models with identical Refs which are not looking absolutely similar. My 244-96 has a gold plated movent while others with this ref don't have this.


I dont buy into that story unless someone shows me 2 pieces , with proper provenance, that are close together in serial , same reference but show unexplained differences I dont buy into this 'there can be differences just because' story

cal_11 wrote:
The movement is OK for me.

cal_11


its 'A' movement , I dont believe it ever came near the Breitling factory

on a personal note :

One reason I treat *ANY* thread that michael (or someone I suspect being him) starts or participates in with extreme caution and sometimes even very harsh .. because everything he touches turns to sh*t and he tries to peddle sh*t pieces

You're absolutely correct in saying that not everyone is a Betrüger , michael marz however, all his personalities , his shop, his watches etc certainly fall into that Betrüger category

If you're not too far away from Amsterdam I will gladly invite you over for a beer and I can fill you in on some disgusting details and personal experiences, but if you look and read through the forum there are *MANY* examples where his pieces were proven to be dreamt up fakes which are sometimes being sold for a shitload of money even when there's hard proof they're fake (a certain 18K gold rattrapante comes to mind again)

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 04, 2013 11:29 am 
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Roff, thank you.

Dracha, I've read some details about the conflicts between you and Mr März. It is absolutely not interesting for me! I've only participated in these two Datora-threads because I have three Datoras, some friends are having some, I've seen a lot, so I think I have a little experience in these watches.

Based on my experience I can say, it is not black an white, like you've written here:

Quote:
Well, coming from a manufacturing and engineering background I disagree , 2 watches from the same year , same reference and close in serial number should be exactly the same, else you have manufacturing defects , which is unacceptable


Maybe a conspiracy theory is, that none of any Breitling Datoras are real....

Harsh is the right word. I think you're (and some other people here were) assuming, Mr März is behind every Datora-thread. My impression is, that you're (and some other peple were) loosing objectivity - please don't get me wrong, it's my impression. I'm asking myself now: Why should I participate in any thread in this forum, if any post, which is not identical to your opinion, will be contestet. I like to learn and I like to post about Breitling watches but currently I'm only spending the most time with posts like this. :|

Thank you for your invitation, maybe, we can meet sometimes.

cal_11


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 04, 2013 12:16 pm 
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Cal-11, I have absolutely no idea who this Mr. Marz person is or his background other than what I have picked up on threads. Have not asked questions about him nor do I care if he has an 800 watch collection.
I go by what I know from personal experience and family knowledge of those in the trade in SA. This dealer that came on this thread my well be legit and I wish him well if so. Sure there are more like him. And there are just as many if not more that are flooding the market with trash watches of all makes from SA which cannot be denied. Do you deny this? I doubt it.
These Datora have been faked so much that unfortunately this is what has happened, you have this type of talk were two sides have strong opinions.
I personally would never ever purchase a SA Datora from ANY dealer. You just really have zero recourse if something is amiss. To be frank, I would have to have one right in front of me, not in images but in my hands to make a clear cut decision on purchasing one. Bottom line.

Wayne


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