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PostPosted: Mon May 15, 2017 4:23 pm 
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vintage wrote:
Yes but all things being equal wouldn't you rather have the hand and dial lume matching?


Actually, NO. Just give me one of those 817s exactly as they are.

vintage wrote:
but inventing the term "tropical" gives the impression that it's something special or desirable when it's just plain weathered or sun burnt.


Precisely! Sellers of damaged watches had to find some way to make them seem attractive, and you'd have to agree its been a pretty successful marketing approach. Drunk any coffee lately? A billion dollar industry too selling foul tasting brown swill; but people lap up the fancy Italian names, brewing rituals and cafe society. Heck, the best coffee is said to come from beans that have been digested and shit out by monkeys - but not just any monkey: the Asian palm civet from Indonesia no less.


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 Post subject: Re: Let's talk about the
PostPosted: Mon May 15, 2017 7:34 pm 
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vintage wrote:
arcadelt wrote:
tomvox1 wrote:
...would we like our hands lume to match that of the dial as closely as possible? Of course.


Not sure that I agree. Would it make the process of authentication easier - absolutely; but I love the little variations that age and wear can reveal. Surely that is one of the attractions of vintage watch collecting, as evidenced by the premium paid for tropical dials and coffee coloured lume.


Yes but all things being equal wouldn't you rather have the hand and dial lume matching? On my vintage watches that I have had restored I make it a point to match the lume on the hands as closely to the dial lume as possible, even if the dial lume has darkened badly over the years. The watchmakers I engage totally know that and are very good in matching the lume color. To me there's nothing worse than sticking green lumed hands on a vintage piece if it doesn't match. I did do that years ago before I realized a watchmaker could pretty much match the lume color. I think those that have been around as long as me on this forum know I'm a big patina fan and I love Navi's that have been beat up in a cockpit on real world missions. Wouldn't change a thing other than make sure the mechanicals are up to snuff. Heck, I've even left scratched crystals on watches if it increases the over all look of a patina piece. And, I just hate the term "tropical" that seems to have originated with Heuer's. Call it what it is, patina, aged, weathered, whatever but inventing the term "tropical" gives the impression that it's something special or desirable when it's just plain weathered or sun burnt. All that being said this all boils down to individual taste and the market will eventually show what will bring the best return, if that's what's important to you.


If you're talking about matching hands that have been badly relumed or modern lumina parts to the tone of original Tritium dial lume, I suppose I agree. Same if the lume has fallen out generally speaking. If you're talking about repainting original hands lume that has aged to a different color naturally and is mostly intact then I'd have to disagree. But then that is a personal aesthetic choice. For me originality is more important than matching dial & hands. For you, if I read you right, you'd rather make them match even if the parts & lume are original. No wrong answer, as it's your watch to do with what you like.
As for "tropical" to describe a dial baked brown by the sun I believe that is originally a Vintage Rolex term so lay blame for that where it is properly due. :wink:
Best,
T.


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PostPosted: Mon May 15, 2017 8:29 pm 
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tomvox1 wrote:
If you're talking about matching hands that have been badly relumed or modern lumina parts to the tone of original Tritium dial lume, I suppose I agree. Same if the lume has fallen out generally speaking. If you're talking about repainting original hands lume that has aged to a different color naturally and is mostly intact then I'd have to disagree. But then that is a personal aesthetic choice. For me originality is more important than matching dial & hands. For you, if I read you right, you'd rather make them match even if the parts & lume are original. No wrong answer, as it's your watch to do with what you like.
As for "tropical" to describe a dial baked brown by the sun I believe that is originally a Vintage Rolex term so lay blame for that where it is properly due. :wink:
Best,
T.


So who are you actually quoting here @tomvox1?


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 Post subject: Re: Let's talk about the
PostPosted: Tue May 16, 2017 5:43 am 
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arcadelt wrote:
tomvox1 wrote:
If you're talking about matching hands that have been badly relumed or modern lumina parts to the tone of original Tritium dial lume, I suppose I agree. Same if the lume has fallen out generally speaking. If you're talking about repainting original hands lume that has aged to a different color naturally and is mostly intact then I'd have to disagree. But then that is a personal aesthetic choice. For me originality is more important than matching dial & hands. For you, if I read you right, you'd rather make them match even if the parts & lume are original. No wrong answer, as it's your watch to do with what you like.
As for "tropical" to describe a dial baked brown by the sun I believe that is originally a Vintage Rolex term so lay blame for that where it is properly due. :wink:
Best,
T.


So who are you actually quoting here @tomvox1?


The other fella. :wink:
Best,
T.


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PostPosted: Wed May 17, 2017 1:49 pm 
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Hi Tomvox,
I had a look on your 7806 for sale on ebay and personaly I have no concern about the dial neither about differences between dial lume and hands lume .

But please , in your text avoid assertions about V7740 as " Essentially a non-automatic version of the revolutionary Chronomatic caliber 11/12" .
V7740 and Cal.11 Chrono-Matic are both modular calibers .
V7740 is manual, beating at 28800 a/h , hour and date modules designed in the Valjoux style .
Cal.11 is automatic, derivated from Büren 1280 with the same excentrated and compact micro-rotor . Beating at 21600 a/h before upgrading to 28800a/h on the cal.12.
The common part is the chronometer module designed by E. Depraz . As it is on the back face, V7740 and cal.11 look similar at 1st sight but you are completely wrong in writing that V7740 is a non automatic version of cal.11 .
Apart the common chrono plate , they are radically different and do not share any part . V7740 was launched about 1 year before cal. 11 and was expensive to produce , I have been told that it was more expensive than cal.11 ! As it was not automatic , it did not stay in production for years as the topseller family V7733-34-36 .
Valjoux then launched the 7750 which became their bestseller.


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PostPosted: Wed May 17, 2017 7:07 pm 
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saabreit wrote:
Hi Tomvox,
I had a look on your 7806 for sale on ebay and personaly I have no concern about the dial neither about differences between dial lume and hands lume .

But please , in your text avoid assertions about V7740 as " Essentially a non-automatic version of the revolutionary Chronomatic caliber 11/12" .
V7740 and Cal.11 Chrono-Matic are both modular calibers .
V7740 is manual, beating at 28800 a/h , hour and date modules designed in the Valjoux style .
Cal.11 is automatic, derivated from Büren 1280 with the same excentrated and compact micro-rotor . Beating at 21600 a/h before upgrading to 28800a/h on the cal.12.
The common part is the chronometer module designed by E. Depraz . As it is on the back face, V7740 and cal.11 look similar at 1st sight but you are completely wrong in writing that V7740 is a non automatic version of cal.11 .
Apart the common chrono plate , they are radically different and do not share any part . V7740 was launched about 1 year before cal. 11 and was expensive to produce , I have been told that it was more expensive than cal.11 ! As it was not automatic , it did not stay in production for years as the topseller family V7733-34-36 .
Valjoux then launched the 7750 which became their bestseller.


While i admit I am not one of the great watch mechanics in the hobby and have no particular expertise in the the finer technical aspects of movements per se but I think the pictures do not lie...

Image

Image

I would have to say that the two calibers share more in common than you are suggesting i.e. "radically different and do not share any part."
Also this from our friends at Chronocentric, which could be more "false wisdom" from the internet but nonetheless consideration must be paid to the opinion, I think...

http://www.chronocentric.com/forums/heu ... d;id=23373

Best,
T.


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PostPosted: Wed May 17, 2017 8:59 pm 
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When you open the caseback, you see the Dubois Depraz chronoplate which is common to V7740 and Cal.11 -12 and 14.
Cal 15 is a simplified version .
Just look at the bottom of the pictures, you see the balance zones which belong to the hour module . Are they similar in any way?

The guy on Chronocentric looks excellent in supputations but if he had verified part by part in real or simply on the technical sheets, he would have been less sure .
I should be happy to read opinion of real watchmakers as Craig or others here .
What you read in newspapers is not always the truth and we have the common responsability to avoid wrong hypothesis because this forum aims to be the best possible reference for Breitling vintage enthusiasts .


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PostPosted: Thu May 18, 2017 6:35 am 
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saabreit wrote:
When you open the caseback, you see the Dubois Depraz chronoplate which is common to V7740 and Cal.11 -12 and 14.
Cal 15 is a simplified version .
Just look at the bottom of the pictures, you see the balance zones which belong to the hour module . Are they similar in any way?

The guy on Chronocentric looks excellent in supputations but if he had verified part by part in real or simply on the technical sheets, he would have been less sure .
I should be happy to read opinion of real watchmakers as Craig or others here .
What you read in newspapers is not always the truth and we have the common responsability to avoid wrong hypothesis because this forum aims to be the best possible reference for Breitling vintage enthusiasts .


There will obviously be minor differences, as the 7740 has both date and constant seconds at "6," and more significantly in the balance assembly since on the Chronomatic that is part of the separate and distinct Buren autowind component. But really in looking at the business end of the chronograph parts for both the Chronomatic family and the 7740 they are incredibly similar. As you say, I would await a real watchmaker's opinion because I think the onus is on you to back up your assertion that they are not highly related when they clearly appear to be.

Image

I would also hypothesize that the 7740 might not be a "true" Valjoux caliber. If you look at the 7736, the real successor to the Val 72, it is nothing like the 7740:

Image

It's pretty clear that due to the overwhelming similarities with the Chronomatic that the 7740 is based on the Dubois-Depraz chrono module component of the the Cal. 11 family. So it could have been branded as "Valjoux" when converted to a manual movement due to Dubois-Depraz's relationship with Valjoux as a sometime supplier of components for them. Since Dubois-Depraz was not really a stand alone maker of ebauches but rather a supplier of components/complications, Valjoux might have just negotiated for the rights, modified it to this manual configuration and then branded it with their name, in turn supplying it to Breitling. Without being mated to the Buren module to create the Chronomatic calibers, Dubois-Dupraz would need someone to convert their chrono module to a stand-alone caliber that would further their business and expand demand for their innovative design, which Valjoux appears to have done by adding the necessary components to turn it into a practical manual wind chrono movement with date. Just a theory but also essentially what Jeff Stein is suggesting in that post I linked. That could explain both the 7740's striking similarity to the Chronomatic calibers and its lack of similarity to most Valjoux-designed calibers.
Best,
T.


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PostPosted: Thu May 18, 2017 8:47 am 
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8 - 10 years ago, I had bought one of those NOS Breitling Pult with dial ... and impossible to find a V7740. After months to seek after a complete caliber, I decided to buy individual spares and fullfill a complete kit in order to build a brand new V7740. It took me 7 years . I did the same way with a cal .11 , so even if I am not a profesional watchmaker, let me say that I have learned in a very realistic way what is common, similar or completely different . Many sellers - consciously or not - consider that parts are common and the legend costed me a lot of money . Confusion is made or created by watchparts dealers , not by watchmakers .
Valjoux bought Venus , so the Valjoux 7730 is just the new name for the Venus 188 . Valjoux 72 and Venus 178 were quite similar because their requirement schedule was the same . V7736 was made to succeed to V178 ... but V7740 is not similar to any other one .
I speak only about the hour module , I repeat that the chrono module has been designed by E. Depraz ( Dubois Depraz was and still is a specialist for chrono modules ) for fitting on both V7740 and Chrono-Matic module .
At this period many kinds of cooperations were tested , just because the prosperous period was ended and quartz pressure was starting .
V7740 design has been sponsorized by Breitling and Heuer and it was a "reserved caliber" . Apart Excelsior Park you would not see a V7740 elsewhere .
V7733-34-36 family were catalog calibers and buying them was allowed to everybody .
Chrono-Matic module was the fruit of a consortium of 4 members (Breitling, Heuer , Hamilton and Büren) wanting to mutualize design and tooling costs , , another business approach .


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PostPosted: Thu May 18, 2017 10:03 am 
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I've stayed out of this for a number of reasons, but I have to say.....

This always felt a lot less like a discussion of the service dial "theory" (wasn't aware a well documented series of facts was a theory, but there you go) than it did a polite presentation of one person's perspective on why they were correct. As this thread now morphs to a discussion on calibres that feeling persists and grows.

If it walks like a duck and talks like a duck let's not pretend it's a zebra!



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PostPosted: Thu May 18, 2017 1:15 pm 
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Roffensian wrote:
This always felt a lot less like a discussion of the service dial "theory"...than it did a polite presentation of one person's perspective on why they were correct.


Well, we tried...


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 Post subject: Re: Let's talk about the
PostPosted: Thu May 18, 2017 2:58 pm 
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arcadelt wrote:
Roffensian wrote:
This always felt a lot less like a discussion of the service dial "theory"...than it did a polite presentation of one person's perspective on why they were correct.


Well, we tried...


You can lead a horse to water...................


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PostPosted: Thu May 18, 2017 3:01 pm 
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Enough for me , I surrender now


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PostPosted: Thu May 18, 2017 7:03 pm 
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Roffensian wrote:
I've stayed out of this for a number of reasons, but I have to say.....

This always felt a lot less like a discussion of the service dial "theory" (wasn't aware a well documented series of facts was a theory, but there you go) than it did a polite presentation of one person's perspective on why they were correct. As this thread now morphs to a discussion on calibres that feeling persists and grows.

If it walks like a duck and talks like a duck let's not pretend it's a zebra!


From an old alum in another venue:

http://www.mwrforum.net/forums/showthre ... post281634

Best,
T.


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