How special is this , Datora ref 803 moonphase

cruvon · **Posted:** Wed Feb 29, 2012 3:24 pm

Oky, didn't know that they had SS casebacks Rene. Also unique is the outer ring on the movement with those clip sort of things, maybe to keep the case in place and waterproof?

Dracha · **Posted:** Wed Feb 29, 2012 3:27 pm

serial 819xxx dates it to '53
should it have Geneve on the dial as well ?

WatchFred · **Posted:** Wed Feb 29, 2012 3:35 pm

Dracha wrote:

serial 819xxx dates it to '53
should it have Geneve on the dial as well ?

52 catalogue shows the 803 without Geneve, not sure this would be a must, they definitely did not throw out case and dial inventory when they moved - see the 45/46 Chronomat cases appearing with mid 50s dials, too many not to be legit. They apparently built up massive stocks of components after WWII and this lasted a bit longer, might have been a bit like the Blackberry Playbook or the HP Tablet of the times ?

cruvon · **Posted:** Wed Feb 29, 2012 3:43 pm

If this watch is as rare as it's Rolex sibling http://www.christies.com/LotFinder/lot_ ... ID=5257496 and all genuine, then it's a truely rare find!

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/01/16/fashi ... wanted=all

Roffensian · **Posted:** Wed Feb 29, 2012 5:34 pm

Well......

The case is consistent with an 803 so I have no issues with that, and if the case is correct then the assumption is that the caseback is also correct, even if the Breitling engraving is later. The dial gives every indication of being a genuine Breitling dial, with the possible caveat of the minutes subdial. Ths Israeli site has a similarly marked piece claiming to be an 803, but that clearly has multiple issues - http://www.clubbreitlingisrael.co.il/si ... y_id=16842.

Richter makes no mention of a moonphase on the 803, but so what, I can accept that is correct too.

I would like to see better pictures of the movement - steel chrono wheels are correct, solid balance wheel is OK for an 88, but I don't see any shock protection and not only would I expect to see shock protection on this quality a piece, the caseback advertises it. I also find the gilded Breitling on the bridge somewhat unusual. No export code, and I guess that's OK

I am concerned that a 1953 piece doesn't carry Geneve on the dial - they were proud of the fact and made a big deal of it. Could we argue that it was a left over dial, sure, but now we are starting to make excuses.

Could it be correct - sure, and I can't see anything that proves that it is wrong, however, if it were my money I would want to do a lot more research to satisfy myself that it isn't an amalgam of genuine dial, genuine case and available movement.

cruvon · **Posted:** Wed Feb 29, 2012 8:48 pm

Hi Rene, there is a 804 described here in steel that looks similar to that 803 GP one. See if you can find the owner and get some movement shots for comparison.
viewtopic.php?f=11&t=15645&start=15

Also see some intersting comments from the member on that thread

Quote:

tomvox1: As you, say: there is no real premium to be got by slapping "Breitling" on a Val 88 dial, as none of these watches is currently worth more than any of the others really (we are not talking Patek or Rolex complication values here, fair or not). I certainly did not pay a significant premium for this watch over a similar Heuer, Record, Baume, Nicolet, etc.

So I just don' t understand why someone would go to all this trouble--genuine Val 88 movement, add a signed bridge, inner caseback engraving, outer caseback ref & serial # to a genuine Wakmann case then refinish the dial in two textures and colors and sign it (very professionally, as we see above) "Breitling." To what purpose? Would probably cost more to do all that than the watch is currently worth!

My theory is this: Circa mid-1950s, Breitling had some few spare Valjoux 88 movements in inventory for whatever reason but did not have the proper calendar corrector cases for them any more. So they turned to their sister company Wakmann to provide the case and put out one last series of these using the available "804" reference # (denoting water resistant screw back case) after the earlier and more conventional Breitling-cased versions from the late 1940s. And that is why these 1950s series 804s are all somewhat different and strange:
But as I said, I am in love with this watch and love makes one believe all sorts of silly things. So you are perfectly within your rights to join the large group of folks shaking their heads and tut-tutting at my foolish beliefs!

Dracha · **Posted:** Thu Mar 01, 2012 2:24 am

@Roff

-: I had a close look at the movement and can see the incabloc ?
-: The applied 'B' on the dial seems to indicate its (the dial) genuine , I would have had Q's with a painted dial as thats easily fabricated, the applied 'B' is a lot harder to do
-: I agree that the minute sub dial markings seems to be redone, at least they have a different look and 'feel' what I would normally expect
-: The Israeli piece looks completely different and I believe has more 'wrongs' than 'rights'

@Cruvon

I am not a big believer in having to come up with an unverifiable hypothesis to explain a watch and the components that were used to build the watch . Why would Breitling use another case for their 'flagship' product when cases are only a fraction of the price of the watch ?

WatchFred · **Posted:** Thu Mar 01, 2012 3:16 am

like the dial and logo very much, though I do see the refinishing marks on the minute subdial, still believe this is a genuine Breitling Datora Moonphase dial for the Valjoux88.

Has anybody seen other examples of plated 803s ? This does surprise me a little, as I would not have expected GP cases in the highest complications range ?

That "Breitling Museum" from Israel has so many questionable pieces - including this "moonphase 803" that lacks the waterproof case that distinguishes the 803 from the other Datora - that it directly competes with that other "Museum" we all laugh about, would not take that as an indication for anything.

re shock protection: see "something" there, but does not look like Incabloc, we need better pics, Rene ?

Roffensian · **Posted:** Thu Mar 01, 2012 5:08 am

ironically our multiple personality friend claimed that the Israeli site stole a lot of his photos - ironic really.

No doubt in my mind that the dial is fundamentally sound, as is the case - but plating could be later - it looks pretty good for the age.

I'm OK with a Kif protected or even 'Breitling-choc' shock protection rather than incabloc, case just says 'shock protected', but want to be satisfied that there is something there.

Yaffle · **Posted:** Thu Mar 01, 2012 6:57 am

The 52 Catalogue shows the moonphase as ref 805 (non waterproof) and the 803 as the Datora.

Attachment:

1952_4.jpg

I think Breitling did offer a few of there other high end watches as gold plate (unitime/chronomat?), that's the thing
that's giving me pause, but probably unjustly?

It would certainly help to see larger pictures.

Yaffle · **Posted:** Thu Mar 01, 2012 7:11 am

Answering my own question. Certainly these were offered in plated versions.

Attachment:

Wakmancat.jpg

cruvon · **Posted:** Tue Mar 06, 2012 10:08 pm

Btw any updates on this 803 Rene?

Dracha · **Posted:** Tue Mar 06, 2012 11:50 pm

No, the seller has accepted an offer and received a downpayment on the watch a few hours after he offered it
As its no longer his watch (he says) he's reluctant to send out more detailed pics
I am afraid this is the best we will ever get until we find another one and buy it

cruvon · **Posted:** Wed Mar 07, 2012 12:52 am

Oops, that's quick but guess no point taking it without being absolutely sure it's all correct.

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