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 Post subject: Breitling 817
PostPosted: Fri Mar 19, 2010 1:36 pm 
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http://cgi.ebay.com/VINTAGE-BREITLING-817-CHRONOGRAPH-ITALIAN-AIR-FORCE_W0QQitemZ110509225349QQcmdZViewItemQQptZWristwatches?hash=item19badcf585

Don't really see anything to justify the asking price unless it's just hard to find. I've seen a few of them over the years. The Valjoux 236 movement is the same movement Wakmann used in a variety of diver style watches from the same period. I think Yaffle has one of these.


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 Post subject: Re: Breitling 817
PostPosted: Fri Mar 19, 2010 3:09 pm 
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I think I saw one of these in that one guy's collection too...

I think he was a member from TZ and you posted a link to his pics...

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"I don't got the bright watch I got the right watch" -Jay Z


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 Post subject: Re: Breitling 817
PostPosted: Sat Mar 20, 2010 4:44 am 
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It's a nice unusual piece and it looks to be in reasonably good condition, but no way is is worth that kind of money. I guess if you found a buyer with an Italian Air Force connection then they would be prepared to pau more, buit this seems seriously overpriced.


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 Post subject: Re: Breitling 817
PostPosted: Mon Mar 22, 2010 3:09 am 
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Here’s my 817
Attachment:
Breitling 817.jpg

It was produced in the mid-70's for Helicopter pilots, EI=Esercito Italiano -- Italian Army.
Attachment:
breitling_8170001 copy2.jpg

(scan from Galizia's "Military Wristwatches")

I can’t comment on the price but from my personal perspective I think this is a very collectible and unique watch in many ways – but then I might be overly biased as it does combine my two big watch fascinations, military issued watches and Breitlings.

As far as I’m aware Breitling only ever produced two watches commissioned by the military to their spec. The first is the Canadian one button chrono, which is smallish (about 36mm) and I’ve only seen it sporting the Canadian military redial. The other is the Breitling 817. There is a third reputed CWC style British chrono but since I’ve never seen one outside of a few, less than brilliant, pictures in books I’m not counting it.

I’m also not counting the Iraqi issued pieces because they are essentially commercially produced watches with a custom dial.

So as a Breitling collector this is rare, a watch that was never available commercially, custom manufactured for the Italian military and produced in what seems to be tiny numbers (judging by how rarely they appear).

Not only that but it’s a cracking looking watch with classic tool watch styling and a good large size (around 39/40mm).

Now switching my perspective to that of a military collector (because they will be fighting the Breitling buyers for it) this watch is also unusual and fits into various different collecting areas.

First of all it’s desirable for the fact that it is a commissioned watch made for the military and never commercially sold, as opposed to a watch that was bought by the military from a commercially produced line (e.g. Seamaster 300).

It’s an Italian military chrono which are very collectible and it really should be judged against its peers, the Zenith Cairlelli and the Universal Geneve, both of which are pretty rare and priced accordingly.

http://www.mwrforum.net/forums/showthread.php?t=32388

It’s in the style of the Heuer Bund which is also a collectible line of watches (Leonidas and Sinn) so if you collect those you will want this in your collection.

The market puts an increasing premium on military issued watches. A Rolex submariner 5513 from the Seventies, £3-5k normally, add fixed bars and make it military issued, £30-50k. There’s a military premium on watches like the Seamaster 300 or Tudor Submariner. These watches are also very tricky to buy because except for the issued markings they are often the same as their commercial counterparts.

If you want to assess the value of it I’d judge it with my military hat on. This as a rare military watch with bullet proof provenance from a well known manufacturer with military and aviation history. It’s a great wearable size and is attractive with a clean military dial. I ask myself the question if this was the Zenith or the Lemania Swaf or the Swedish “three crowns” Lemania what would I have to pay for it?

http://www.mwrforum.net/forums/showthread.php?t=12729
http://www.finertimes.com/asp/watches/q ... &Page=1605


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 Post subject: Re: Breitling 817
PostPosted: Mon Mar 22, 2010 8:21 am 
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Sold for $2900


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 Post subject: Re: Breitling 817
PostPosted: Wed Mar 24, 2010 6:03 am 
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Yaffle wrote:
Sold for $2900


That's pretty reasonable, IMHO, as it is about 100x more rare than the comparable Heuer Bund chronos. I wish I had bought it for that, as there is only one way for most high quality military-issued watches to go--up! :wink:
Best,
T.


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 Post subject: Re: Breitling 817
PostPosted: Thu Mar 25, 2010 3:42 am 
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Quote:
there is only one way for most high quality military-issued watches to go--up! :wink:


That's very true Tomvox, it also still seems like it's a maturing market that hasn't yet discovered or valued everything out there, not unlike vintage B's
IMHO.

There's a Canadian issued Breitling currently for sale.
Attachment:
4449755720_d4d79b860b_b.jpg
Attachment:
4449755662_d4ce9aa058_b.jpg
Attachment:
4449755716_5722baf413_b.jpg
Attachment:
4449755712_91852c23c3_b.jpg


http://www.mwrforum.net/forums/showthread.php?t=33433

The information on these only seems to have come to light in the last few years and it is still an obscure watch because Canadian military watches are scarce and not generally highly collected, if this was a UK issued watch (and perhaps if they weren't all redials) I think it would be a very different price.

http://www.mwrforum.net/forums/showthread.php?t=33271

Leaving price aside though, as a Breitling collector I think these are interesting Chronos that are fascinating to me because they touch on the military history of the brand. What's suprising to me, given Breitlings position as a military supplier of aircraft clocks, is that there isn't a lot more military contracted watches in their history.


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 Post subject: Re: Breitling 817
PostPosted: Thu Mar 25, 2010 5:27 am 
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These Canadian ones are starting to make me nervous - as you say Yaffle they were unheard of until recently and now they seem to be cropping up every couple of months. Maybe I'm just paranoid, but it sets off alarms.


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 Post subject: Re: Breitling 817
PostPosted: Thu Mar 25, 2010 9:07 am 
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Quote:
These Canadian ones are starting to make me nervous

I know what you mean Roff. When I was first offered one it made me very nervous, but the information out there supports their existence even if it doesn't tie everything down exactly.

Quote:
they seem to be cropping up every couple of months


I think it feels like that because this forum is intensively focused on vintage Breitlings, when I searched back through the posts I could only see
two others offered for sale (besides this one), one was by a Canadian dealer who'd had it there for a long while:

viewtopic.php?f=11&t=12178&hilit=military

The other was a first time poster:

viewtopic.php?f=11&t=17437&hilit=military

In my experience I've seen maybe 5/8 Breitling versions offered in the last five years or so.

When I researched the one I bought I looked through the Military Watch Site archive disc (great resource btw) and they were first discussed in 2001/2, so predating by a long way the South America shenanigans.

There doesn't seem to be any question that Breitling was a supplier to the Canadian military. The dial layout, the NSN codes and all the military markings are consistent with the other known issued watches (Birks, Rodania, Omega if I remember rightly) and are the correct codes for the watch within the military. The Breitling elements of them, signature on the bridge, date numbers, Valjoux 236, also seem correct.

I think there are definately questions about elements of them for me (who produced the signed dial versions for example), but in the military collecting community, in general, they have been accepted as genuine.

Having said all that there is still very little info about them and being in Canada you could be in a unique position to do some digging, do you know any ex-military or vintage watchmakers who might shed some light on this? :D


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 Post subject: Re: Breitling 817
PostPosted: Thu Mar 25, 2010 9:11 am 
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Yaffle wrote:
Having said all that there is still very little info about them and being in Canada you could be in a unique position to do some digging, do you know any ex-military or vintage watchmakers who might shed some light on this? :D


Not that I know of, but I'll dig around a bit.


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 Post subject: Re: Breitling 817
PostPosted: Thu Mar 25, 2010 9:19 am 
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Quote:
Not that I know of, but I'll dig around a bit.

Cheers.


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 Post subject: Re: Breitling 817
PostPosted: Tue Jul 13, 2010 10:08 am 
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I have the exact same watch.

I received my watch from my father in-law. He got the watch doing a scrap clean up at the comox air base located BC, Canada, back in the late 60's and the watch sat there in the garage for over 40 years before I opened the can.

The can the Breitling "DND" (Department of National Defence) Canadian watch came in is a circular "Vulcan" metal container
The watch is a certified proven Breitling 17 jew. VALJOU CAL. 236
Also come with the Old RCAF Repair tag issued by the government, with the exact serial numbers as the watch, and all serial numbers match the can it came with.

To my understanding these particular watches where for the NATO officers that went over seas from Canada.

Also with this find i found a:

1 - Omega RCAF Chrono one button, Serial # HA-62-082 (try finding that watch with a low serial number of 82. Only 940 produced by omega)
2 - Rodania RCAF Chrono one buttons Serial numbers are 1510 and 425 each
2 - Unmarked Maker? - RCAF Chrono one button, again low serial #'s

All came in these "Vulcan" tins cans. The Breitling and Omega are in excellent working condition. The Breitling does have some weird face damage.... maybe it is water damage to the face or it might be from the Tritium used in the numbers and hands? and the Rodania's and unmarked makers need new crystals(Acrylic) glass and the hour and minute hands. When wound up from the crown they all tick-tock.

Maybe someone can direct me to where I could get a new face for my breitling watch.


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 Post subject: Re: Breitling 817
PostPosted: Tue Jul 13, 2010 11:17 am 
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Johnathan wrote:
Maybe someone can direct me to where I could get a new face for my breitling watch.


Post some pictures and we'll have some idea of whether it's repairabel. Chronodeco (Craig) may be able to assist and he can be contacted by PM. Otherwise you may be looking at a specialist like Mark Heist in PA.


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 Post subject: Re: Breitling 817
PostPosted: Wed Jul 14, 2010 7:10 am 
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Image


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 Post subject: Re: Breitling 817
PostPosted: Wed Jul 14, 2010 7:17 am 
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Here are more pictures of my Department of National Defence Canada, Breitling watch:

Image
Image
Image
Image
Image


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