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PostPosted: Thu Jan 21, 2010 7:51 am 
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Only started seeing it relatively recently on the Bay of Pigs and it would seem to me that any connection is much more tenuous than that between Breitling and Wakmann, which at least once had a genuine connection. This Sicura one seems completely made up! :?
Happy to be corrected, though, and best,
T.


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 21, 2010 8:15 am 
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The Ernst Schneider connection is real of course and I suspect that it's simple reading in from that. Of course that only applies to 1979 and onwards.


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 21, 2010 8:23 am 
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Roffensian wrote:
The Ernst Schneider connection is real of course and I suspect that it's simple reading in from that. Of course that only applies to 1979 and onwards.


Yes, but anything signed Sicura earlier than that is pure fantasy because there was no prior relationship correct? So it's sort of like calling an old Swatch an "Omega" or "Breguet" because now they are owned by the same entity, right? :D
Thanks & best,
T.


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 21, 2010 8:51 am 
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tomvox1 wrote:
Roffensian wrote:
The Ernst Schneider connection is real of course and I suspect that it's simple reading in from that. Of course that only applies to 1979 and onwards.


Yes, but anything signed Sicura earlier than that is pure fantasy because there was no prior relationship correct? So it's sort of like calling an old Swatch an "Omega" or "Breguet" because now they are owned by the same entity, right? :D
Thanks & best,
T.


No prior connection that I am aware of.

I like the Swatch / Breguet image :lol:


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 21, 2010 2:19 pm 
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History in the commercial register of the Breitling, formerly Sicura AG
Overview
Entry in the Commercial Register:
02/05/1955
Legal Head Office:
Grenchen (SO)



Former name

* Sicura Montres SA

Purpose
Manufacture, sale and development of all products and components for watches, jewelry and jewelry industry for the manufacture of instruments and accessories of aviation for the textile and leather industry, optical instruments and other various accessories.
Last SCG announcement of the Breitling AG
SCG: 096 / 2003 of 21.05.2003
Correcting the Gazette No. 112 of 13 06. 1994, p. 3297, published TB-entry No. 163 of 01 06. 1994th Breitling AG in Grenchen, manufacture, sale and development of all products and components for the watch industry, etc., Aktiengesellschaft (SHAB No 227, 22. 11. 2002, p. 10, Publ 740388).
Of new shares: 190 shares at CHF 1,000 .-- 100 registered shares (shares) to CHF 100 - [date: 100 registered shares (SRA) 100. at CHF - 190 registered shares at CHF 1,000 .--].
HR Number:
CH-254.3.000.140-4
HR Office:
Canton Solothurn


Breitling AG Grenchen


Old names:

- Montres Sicura SA Grenchen

- Watches Sicura AG Grenchen

- Sicura Grenchen Watch Company Ltd.


If one is correct, Sicura SA is the direct precursor of today's Breitling SA, not G. Leon Breitling SA and not Breitling-Laederich, who was the real first Breitling company in 1840
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 21, 2010 5:31 pm 
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Which supports the position that the alliance only happened in 1979 with the acquisition - Sicura effectively became the vehicle that Schneider used.


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 21, 2010 11:28 pm 
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let's be correct:

in a strictly legal sense the todays Breitling SA is foundet in the year 1955 as Sicura AG in Grenchen at the same address in Grenchen, where now resides the new Breitling SA

E. Schneider never bought the Breitling company and never bought the Breitling factory and never bought the history or the old watchs or the parts, he or his Sicura SA only bought (or stole) the brand name. one month before Willy Breitling died.

So, if you only key/fasten the history of Breitling on correct legal sense, than its correct that the current Sicura/Breitling SA is the continue of Sicura/Breitling history and its founded in 1955, not 1884.

But if you key the history of Breitling on the brand name, than is the name Breitling-Laederich the first Breitling brand in the year 1840, not G. Leon Breitling and not Leon G. Breitling SA in 1884.
Leon Breitling and his son Gaston never used the brand name Breitling on their watchs, only after the death of Gaston Breitling in 1927 the Leon G. Breitling SA started with the brand name Breitling on the dial.

So in conclusion Breitling 1884 was only a marketing joke of E. Schneider, when he invented his first new Chronomat in 1984. But Breitling as brand was foundet in 1840 from Charles Auguste Breitling, the oncle or grand father of Leon Breitling in Le Locle, later moved to La Chaux de Fonds. And every other version is a lie. ( ἐν ἀρχῇ ἦν ὁ Λόγος )


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Image



(please excuse my bad english, its not my native language and in my school time we not learned it professional)


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 22, 2010 10:01 am 
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of the current Breitling company. The current company prefers to celebrate the Anniversary of Leon, Gaston, and Willy Breitling's company. Note that the current company only switched from Sicura AG to Breitling AG in 1993. The very early 1980s watches sometimes had cases marked for Sicura. I think Breitling The Book has some very interesting pages on the transition.

Breitling Laederich is an older company, but there is no known connection to the company founded in 1884 by Leon Breitling. It is misleading to confuse the two companies.

There is no known advertising or catalog copy that shows "Breitling" on the dial of a watch before the mid-/late- 1930s. Many sellers will offer pieces arguing otherwise.

It is my experience, however, that all watches made by the company founded by Leon Breitling in 1884 will show a mark of the company on the movement, sometimes under the dial. I don't accept an older Breitling as real until I see a mark known to be used by the company on the movement. The exception is the 1940s, when only the marks on the cases identify a real Breitling.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Happy 70th Anniversary!

I was exchanging an email with Kurt and stumbled across a Dunn and Bradstreet report I got a while back on "Breitling AG." Here's the history section (verbatim):

'The subject started in 1939. In May 1955, the present joint stock company was incorporated in the Commercial Registry. It then took over the former sole proprietorship named "Joh. Gobber, Horlogerie", Grenchen with assets and liabilities.

'Since the joint stock company's foundation, it has been run by Ernest Schneider. Mr. Schneider acquired property rights of "Montres Breitling" in Geneva in 1979, a trademark which had been held by the Breitling family since 1884. The Geneva based production was transferred to "Montres Sicura AG" in Grenchen, which adopted the name of Breitling AG in 1993.'

'Former name: Montres Sicura SA; as of 29.11.1993: Breitling AG'

'Registered as a joint stock company since 4 May 1955.'

To supplement that note, I see that Pritchard (NAWCC, 1997) has her first note for Sicura (page S-66): 'The company was listed in 1951 as SICURA, JOH. GOBBER, for pin levers, wrist watches with radium chapter and hands and for center seconds, water-protected and 15 jewel watches. It was listed in 1966 both as SICURA SA and as SICURA WATCH CO. LTD.'

I can imagine why "Gobber" didn't stick. Go ahead and try to make the ad copy.


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 22, 2010 10:59 am 
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Bill in Sacramento wrote:
I can imagine why "Gobber" didn't stick.


:lol:

Thanks Bill - great as ever!


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 23, 2010 9:55 pm 
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lets be correct again:

Quote:
The current company prefers to celebrate the Anniversary of Leon, Gaston, and Willy Breitling's company.


The current company prefers this story, but its not correct. :oops:

Quote:
Breitling Laederich is an older company, but there is no known connection to the company founded in 1884 by Leon Breitling. It is misleading to confuse the two companies.


Breitling-Laederich is the first company, who owned and used the brand name "BREITLING"

No connection ? :uplaugh: :uplaugh: :uplaugh: the owner of Breitling-Laederich was Charles Auguste Breitling, the uncle or grand father of Leon Breitling, that is much more connection as to E. Schneider, who only bought or stole the brand name Breitling on deathbed of Willy Breitling and produced the watches in his Sicura AG

Quote:
There is no known advertising or catalog copy that shows "Breitling" on the dial of a watch before the mid-/late- 1930s.


Look in Benno Richter page 13, he says: "end of the 1920ths Breitling begann to use the brand name on the dial"
It was exact after the ded of Gaston Breitling in 1927, because the brand name BREITLING was before occupated by Breitling-Laederich and Leon Breitling had a big dispute with Charles Auguste Breitling before. Charles Auguste Breitling never alowed Leon and Gaston Breitling to use the brand name "BREITLING". After the ded of Gaston Breitling, the company was mangeged by an extern director before Willy Breitling took over the leadership. And first time this extern director got the rights to use the brand name "BREITLING" on the dial.


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 24, 2010 12:21 am 
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I should think you would be the last person to comment on someone else's marketing practices. Talk about a glass house.

As to the connection of Leon Breitling to the Breitling Laederich company, all I know of is the speculative paragraph on page 14 of Breitling: The Book. "Now Leon Breitling's grandfather and one of his uncles (Charles-August, "a watch merchant" by trade) had both married Misses Laederich. Perhaps it was in the family workshop that young Leon was first initiated into the workings of fine mechanics."

Since this region of Switzerland was populated my thousands of inhabitants connected to the watch trade in some way, it can only be imagined that Leon's relatives were the Breitling Laederich company. I would want something in the way of evidence to connect these dots.

And besides, we have no reason to doubt that Leon Breitling established his own company in 1884 in St. Imier, unconnected to the Breitling Laederich company.

I think we may also need a professional genealogist. Recall that Richter's book begins with "The story of Breitling began on January 26, 1860, the day Leon Breitling, as a youth, first decided to learn about watches. Several years before that, his parents had moved from the Stuttgart, Germany area to the Swiss Jura to find work." Seems to be a different story than The Book. It would be good to have the source references to this early biographical material. Where did he get that date? [Note to file: On Tuesday, celebrate the 150th Anniversary of Leon's decision to "learn about watches."]

But, since I see you are trying to sell Breitling Laederich watches now, you will help peddle stories to assist your sales. You should stop that.

As to the appearance of "Breitling" on the dial, all evidence points to 1936 as the earliest known example. I took the occasion to go through all of the advertising materials and examples in Breitling: The Book, and we can find the first example in an ad in 1937. Likewise, in Brunner and Pfeiffer-Belli's Swiss Wristwatches: Chronology of Worldwide Success, Swiss Watch Design in Old Advertisements and Catalogs (Schiffer, 1991), the first Breitling with "Breitling" on the dial is shown as part of the Paris Exhibition in 1937. Pages from the Swiss Horological Journal in 1937 are also shown with a few of the dials signed "Breitling." Since these pages are the same as the ones reproduced in Richter's book, we have further confirmation that his book has the wrong date for what he shows as a 1932 catalog (they are pages describing the watches in the 1937 Basel show). Richter's 1936 catalog shows both "Breitling" and "Montbrillant" dials, but we might have our doubts about the dating of his material. 1936/1937 seems to be the years "Breitling" began to appear on the dial.

As to Richter's statement on page 13, I believe it to be wrong for the evidence I just related, as well as the incorrectness of the following sentence: "Later, during the early thirties, definite serial numbers were used." Which is an odd statement considering the list of "definitive" serials he presents begins in 1944. Aw, well.

[On page 8 of Richter, he says script "Breitling" was on the dial from 1930/32 to the sixties. Consistency isn't Richter's strong suit. Well, I guess accuracy ain't either, since the script signature faded out in the early 1950s.]

I know that you are trying to sell many examples of these early chronographs you claim to be authentic. They are not. You should not try to use this forum as a sales platform. You should be banned.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 27, 2010 12:47 am 
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Quote:
I should think you would be the last person to comment on someone else's marketing practices. Talk about a glass house.


Quote:
But, since I see you are trying to sell Breitling Laederich watches now, you will help peddle stories to assist your sales. You should stop that.


Quote:
I know that you are trying to sell many examples of these early chronographs you claim to be authentic. They are not. You should not try to use this forum as a sales platform. You should be banned.


Thank you Bill for your comments. You are real a very very intelligent person, you may be clairvoyant, what another want. :wink: :wink:

Do you real think, I am so stupid and try to sell my fantastic and unique real Breitling watches against cheap Monopoly-dollars, which are tomorrow not a cent worth. Did you not yet understand what is happening with American money? Its nothing, only rubbish. Nobody in the world want this chit, and I certainly do not want it.

No real nobody get my real valuable Breitling watches against rubbish dollars. If I had want to sell it here, I could put it in the sales corner. But why I dont do it ? Is your brain enough to understand this, or you'll start over again with these spinners?

And: Breitling-Laederich is the first Breitling brand, if you like or not. Do you understand this ? :idea:

And: I only search to buy rare and good Breitling vintage watches here, I dont want sell any watch here. If somebody have to sell , I will pay a real good price, more as any american dealer or buyer pays.

And here, only one of the many comments, which I get every day by maill from other members here:
Quote:
Thank you for your advice. I enjoy your posts as you have a great knowledge and collection of vintage Breitling. Some people on the forum only think they know.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 27, 2010 4:29 am 
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Gentlemen,

Let's not take this conversation in the direction that it is heading.

There is very little documented evidence about many of the things that we discuss and so we are dealing with opinions and supposition. Strongly stating those positions as fact (pro or con) doesn't make them facts, just stongly held opinions.

Publicly quoting PMs from members is another example of sharing opinions - not facts. Michael, I could share publicly some PMs that I have received in the past, some of which I have quoted to you in PMs, but I don't think that you want me to do that either.

You will never get away from the fact that you make money from Breitlings and are therefore going to be questioned on your motivations - whether those sales are here or somewhere else. As to why you don't sell here, well people will have their own thoughts as to why that is, but we are back to that one word - opinion.

Michael, I am glad that you are still here and contributing to the discussions and over the last few months you have become a strong contributor, however you have (that word again) opinions that are different from many which will inevitably lead to disagreement. That can be healthy debate or unhealthy finger pointing and accusation, let's everyone make sure that it stays healthy debate.

Thank you.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 27, 2010 6:09 am 
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Quote:
That can be healthy debate or unhealthy finger pointing and accusation, let's everyone make sure that it stays healthy debate.


Thanks Roff,
but please be fair and say it to Bill. I never start with such irrelevant arguments and personal attacks, its only he.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 27, 2010 10:07 am 
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“Do you real think, I am so stupid and try to sell my fantastic and unique real Breitling watches”

You do not hold a single fantastic & unique Navitimer / Cosmonaute for sale, you are selling watches with fake cases http://cgi.ebay.com/BREITLING-Uhr-Navit ... 35a69ffc84

And watches with fake dials
http://cgi.ebay.com/BREITLING-Uhr-Navit ... 3efc4f8efe

http://cgi.ebay.com/1963-SOLID-18K-VINT ... 3ca975a91b

And Frankenstein watches http://cgi.ebay.com/Breitling-Navitimer ... 20ade19661

The majority of the dials on your watches has been redone, and it looks like they was done by a trained monkey. Not to mention non original hands, crowns etc.etc.

The above links was chosen in 5 minutes, and I don’t want to waste more time going through your watches.

You have worked under multiply identities over the years, and you are a disgrace for the international vintage watch world, finally you dare to question the words of Bill, a highly respected and very knowledged watch collector.

People like you should be banned from this Forum before it’s too late, as if you stay here there's a risk that rest of us will go instead.

Moderator, feel free to delete this post if it against your policy, I just feel that the truth had to come out, and I will not comment further on this subject.


I am Kurt B


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